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The key phrase, or a variation, each of you have stated-"with the rebate".
Big difference between tax credit and rebate.
Rebate - deducted from vehicle price when closing the deal
Tax credit - only for people and cars that qualify, their next year after purchase tax return could include up to $7,500 credit
There are no such thing as EV rebates offered by federal government, this is a misconception and marketing ploy to get people interested.
So while federal rebates are not existent, some states might offer rebates, but one needs to look into it.
Rebate - deducted from vehicle price when closing the deal
Tax credit - only for people and cars that qualify, their next year after purchase tax return could include up to $7,500 credit
There are no such thing as EV rebates offered by federal government, this is a misconception and marketing ploy to get people interested.
So while federal rebates are not existent, some states might offer rebates, but one needs to look into it.
I misspoke. But look at the responses, almost every poster has mentioned how the tax credit makes an EV comparable in price to an ICE vehicle and a reason to buy.
You've also reached a plateau in EV sales, early adopters have already bought while the follow on buyers are holding off or buying another ICE.
There isn't enough lithium on this planet to replace every ICE vehicle with an EV, and even if there were, there isn't enough electricity produced to power them.
They're a fad. You can get more utility out of a Toyota Camry than a Tesla Model Y and for tens of thousands of dollars less.
There isn't enough lithium on this planet to replace every ICE vehicle with an EV, and even if there were, there isn't enough electricity produced to power them.
They're a fad. You can get more utility out of a Toyota Camry than a Tesla Model Y and for tens of thousands of dollars less.
True, and also there's the unfortunate fact that electricity rates are rising.
Given rising demand from mandates to remove or ban sales of gas stoves and oil/gas heating in homes, and the growing number of EV's, coupled with the lack of a plan to meet that demand, rates are likely to rise even faster.
States like California are closing coal, gas, and nuclear power plants as fast as they can. They actually had to reopen their last nuclear plant, because of brownouts a couple of summers ago. As it is, California is now a net importer of electricity from neighboring states.
From EIA.gov, here are the 2021 rates for the top 14 states & D.C.:
Hawaii 30.31
Alaska 20.02
California 19.65
Massachusetts 19.06
Rhode Island 18.44
Connecticut 18.32
New Hampshire 17.37
Vermont 16.34
New York 16.11
New Jersey 14.01
Maine 13.96
Michigan 12.93
D.C. 12.81
Maryland 11.48
All other states are around or below the national average of $11.10. I have to wonder, first of all, could Hawaii possibly be any less affordable? Electricity is triple the cost of the national average, so you're going to be paying through the nose to recharge overnight, unless you have solar but even then...
Alaska is a state that seems an unlikely part of the country for an EV. With its harsh winters and vast sparsely populated land mass, you're going to need a 4 wheel drive SUV or truck to get where you need to go, unless you live in Anchorage and commute 10 miles a day maximum.
California barely edges out Massachusetts for the #3 spot, and as noted, California is busy shutting down its electric generation capacity, so rates will only rise, even with solar and wind generation which are not ramping up fast enough.
This is an important aspect of owning electric vehicles but is never mentioned by proponents, nor by state governments that are so eager to switch people over to EV's while simultaneously taking away people's ability to recharge them.
All other states are around or below the national average of $11.10. I have to wonder, first of all, could Hawaii possibly be any less affordable? Electricity is triple the cost of the national average, so you're going to be paying through the nose to recharge overnight, unless you have solar but even then...
The only saving grace with Hawaii, is that they have the lowest property taxes (0.28%) in the US; if you can get out there and afford a house, everything else is mucho dinero!
Read the whole article. If you factor in the $7,500 tax rebate than it is a wash at 3 years and money in your pocket after that.
What about resale value? If you decide to sell an EV, the next owner will not get the rebate? So in effect the EV "depreciates" by $7500 in addition to the normal depreciation due to wear and tear. Who wants to buy a used EV when the new ones have greater range?
The actual cost of ownership includes all factors including depreciation. The article mentions depreciation but does not seem to include it in the calculation.
The tax credit is no sure bet, you have to have a tax liability of $7,500 or more and there are income requirements. You buy the car now and then hope you get it with your return when thats done next year.
I misspoke. But look at the responses, almost every poster has mentioned how the tax credit makes an EV comparable in price to an ICE vehicle and a reason to buy.
You've also reached a plateau in EV sales, early adopters have already bought while the follow on buyers are holding off or buying another ICE.
I think aside from misspeaking, you also have a problem where you misread what was being said in the first place. It's not necessarily the federal tax credit that makes an EV comparable in price to an ICE vehicle because in various categories, especially premium segments, they are already comparable or cheaper than their ICE vehicle *without* including the federal tax credit. Let me highlight this to make it easier for you to know where you misread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddeemo
Not really true - for example, the BMW Series 3 is about $5K more than a similar Tesla Model 3 and with the rebate, the Tesla becomes much cheaper even though comes with more standard features that are optional on the BMW and has a bigger interior - the EV does have shorter range.
Currently the Tesla Model 3 starts at $40.2K while the BMW starts at $45.5K but need to add at least $1.5K to get somewhat similar features. So Tesla comes in at $32.7K after rebate vs the BMWs $47K with similar contents - the BMW ICE vehicle is almost 1.5x more than a similar EV.
So you misread. The Model 3 is much cheaper than the 3-Series with the federal tax credits, but it also already starts cheaper even without the "rebate".
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
So presuming you keep the vehicle longer than 3 years which isn't that odd, it becomes cheaper which is pretty much what's been stated in the past with higher purchase price but longer operating costs.
The calculations are also a bit weird in terms of trim levels. The Mini Cooper SE (the electric one) base trim figure they listed come with has powertrain specs, performance, and features that are about equivalent to the Mini Cooper S and the Mini Cooper S starts at $29,100 or about $4,900 higher than the standard Mini Cooper they used as a base price. The Mini Cooper S is also a tad less fuel efficient than the standard Mini Cooper so operating prices also go up. The Hyundai Kona Electric is in a similar boat where the features and powertrain specs are more in line with the Hyundai Kona Limited which starts at $28,950 or about $7,510 higher than the base Hyundai Kona they used for comparison and is also less fuel efficient than the base trim. So if you can get the $7,500 federal tax credit rolled in, the Mini Electric SE is cheaper from the start versus the equivalent Mini Cooper S, and the Hyundai Kona Electric is cheaper in about the third year of ownership when squared against the similar Hyundai Kona Limited trim.
These aren't premium segment vehicles, but even here, the Mini Cooper SE starts at the same price as the Mini Cooper S with similar specs and features *without* the federal tax credits. Not so for the Hyundai Kona vs Hyundai Kona Electric though where you need the federal tax credit to get closer to parity, and *then* you need a few years of operation before the total cost gets to parity. So of three vehicles mentioned, it's only one that needs the federal tax credit to get comparable or better price comparisons. There are, of course, more EV vs ICE comparison available, but the general rule for the US market is that EVs are at comparable or better purchase prices before federal tax credit for the premium segments while other segments require the federal tax credit and potentially also factoring in a few years of operational costs before reaching price parity or better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FordBronco1967
There isn't enough lithium on this planet to replace every ICE vehicle with an EV, and even if there were, there isn't enough electricity produced to power them.
They're a fad. You can get more utility out of a Toyota Camry than a Tesla Model Y and for tens of thousands of dollars less.
There's certainly enough lithium on this planet to replace every ICE vehicle with an EV and then some. What you're saying is a weird bit of misinformation which unfortunately never seems to go away and really is more about people not quite understanding or bothering to know what's actually present in the earth's crust or how to do the math for this. The real, practical questions are more about how well the pace of additional production of the raw materials meets with the pace of increasing demand for EVs. The prices can get pretty volatile because even as there has been exponential growth in the amount of lithium produced per year to go with the exponential growth in the amount of EVs produced per year, there is sometimes some discrepancy between the two and so you sometimes see highly volatile prices for lithium. This will likely stabilize once global new vehicle sales are substantially majority EVs though there are other potential disruptions like if sodium-ion batteries start taking off. This is the first year of a mass production sodium-ion battery so it's within the realm of possibility.
I think the Model Y is probably more utility given that it has a hatchback and a frunk, and gives you the convenience of refueling at home, but it's also probably not the right comparison. The Tesla Model Y is a premium crossover while Toyota is not a premium badge and the vehicle is a sedan, not a crossover. In usable space and market segment, the Lexus RX is probably the closest offering from Toyota to a Tesla Model Y.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-25-2023 at 09:24 PM..
There's certainly enough lithium on this planet to replace every ICE vehicle with an EV and then some. What you're saying is a weird bit of misinformation which unfortunately never seems to go away and really is more about people not quite understanding or bothering to know what's actually present in the earth's crust or how to do the math for this. The real, practical questions are more about how well the pace of additional production of the raw materials meets with the pace of increasing demand for EVs. The prices can get pretty volatile because even as there has been exponential growth in the amount of lithium produced per year to go with the exponential growth in the amount of EVs produced per year, there is sometimes some discrepancy between the two and so you sometimes see highly volatile prices for lithium. This will likely stabilize once global new vehicle sales are substantially majority EVs though there are other potential disruptions like if sodium-ion batteries start taking off. This is the first year of a mass production sodium-ion battery so it's within the realm of possibility.
Not all of the lithium on our planet can be feasibly extracted. That cuts down the amount of available lithium versus the total amount on the planet. Not to mention we also need lithium for billions of smartphone batteries, laptops, electric lawn care equipment, and anything else that uses rechargeable batteries. And, none of that includes the environmental catastrophe created when extracting the lithium and other precious metals. And, the child slave labor used to extract the lithium and other precious metals.
Environmentally speaking, the best thing anyone can do is drive the same car for their entire life. I'm still driving the same car I got at sixteen. Of course, I'm only twenty-three, so that isn't the biggest deal! But, I have no intention of selling it. I'm not giving up my V8. The sound of the engine as it revs and the feel of the transmission as it shifts cannot be replicated in an EV. And, I'm not spending forty to fifty thousand dollars on something that will be a brick after ten years, due to a single shorted out cell in the battery. That's a waste, and waste upsets me.
EV's are a toy for people with money. Most people cannot afford to have a brick after ten years of ownership, when a single cell shorts out and the car won't accelerate beyond five miles per hour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
I think the Model Y is probably more utility given that it has a hatchback and a frunk and gives you the convenience of refueling at home, but it's also probably not the right comparison. The Tesla Model Y is a premium crossover while Toyota is not a premium badge and the vehicle is a sedan, not a crossover. In usable space and market segment, the Lexus RX is probably the closest offering from Toyota to a Tesla Model Y.
A Camry can go five hundred miles, on average, on a tank of gas. A Model Y can only go three hundred miles at the most. I've already explained it in detail before on another thread, but it ends up costing $13,000 more to own a Model Y, over a ten year period, than a Camry. Gas and maintenance included. Electricity not included. Perhaps utility wasn't the right word.
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