top 10 point guards as of now?

[justtitans]

Originally Posted by eastcoastbias

John Wall should not be mentioned in the same sentence with Irving...sorry you lost me.

Irving has a different role with the Cavs which will likely change now that they aren't tanking and surrounding him with players. He needs to have a score first mentality. How many guys on that roster last year could break down a defense? How many guys were shooting 40% behind the arc? Impressive performance and you say "empty" performance- tough critic considering he was "the guy" on that team.

John Wall shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence? Wait until next year.

Irving had Antwan Jamison his rookie year. This year he had Dion Waiters, who after a slow start came on strong and was the main reason the team kept winning while Irving was hurt. He got some pieces around him now, especially with some of the players. Even his first year though, he had a bonafide all-star caliber PF that could score from all over the court. His job surely is to lead his team, but my point is, he is not a superstar. His game does not translate to his team winning games.

The team in total went 19-40 (.322) with him in the lineup and 5-18 (.217) without him.

In comparison, the Wizards went 5-28 (.152) without John Wall and 24-25 with him. (.490)

Some would argue that the top to bottom the Cavaliers had a better roster than the Wizards.
John Wall, the same guy you say shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Irving, has more impact on his team and he isn't even half the offensive player that Irving is. Irving has a much more refined offensive game than Wall, but the biggest difference between the two is, Irving does not make players around him better, simple as that. That is the difference between a player like Monta Ellis and Stephen Curry, which is why the Warriors drafted Curry. Monta Ellis is one of the best scorers in the league, but if your team is still losing and no one else is playing well, then what's the point?

I love Kyrie's game. He's a great player, but I think he is overrated. I don't know how else to put it.

Originally Posted by eastcoastbias

Wait until he has a Westbrook or Parker cast.

Have you seen Westbrook cast? They struggled to knock out the #8 seed without him. Outside of Durant and maybe Ibaka, that team was not going anywhere. Westbrook and Durant make that team.

Originally Posted by eastcoastbias

Why are we discussing? Because opinions are wildly scattered but look what the experts say...ESPN.com and the TrueHoop Network Rank Irving #12 overall and the #4 PG and they say he is trending upward.

Consider this...Per Pro Basketball Prospectus, three point guards in the Association's long history have posted a season of 8-plus WARP before they hit age 21: Magic Johnson, Chris Paul and......................Irving.

Hence why I have said he's overrated. If he was ranked lower then I would have no reason to say he's overrated.

And what do those numbers really mean? They won 24 games. It doesn't matter how good he is, he does not make players around him better which is why their team stunk last year. If you are that good, but your team is among the worst in the league, what does that really say about you as a player? Especially as a PG. People would argue that Magic made Worthy a better player or that Paul makes people like Tyson Chandler or even Blake Griffin better, but who does Irving help?

[eastcoastbias]

Jamison? Really. This isn't 2005.

The same wait until next year argument could be brought up for Irving.

Who does Irving make better...besides everybody when he is shouldering the offense..Anderson V is an easy one. When healthy he is clearly a better player than he was with lebron.

Westbrook has Durant...do we need any other proof. Durant is the second best player on the planet.

If folks are going to rate Irving 7,8,9 or not at all like some have on this thread he's obviously not overrated

[rigas]

So what you're saying is that Andy V is better with Irving then he was with Lebron? You mean a forward he's more rebounds now that the best player in the nba who happens to also be a forward is gone? Or could it be he entered his prime, you know the best time of his life? Or maybe it's because he only played 31, 25, and 25 games each of the last 3 seasons.

This whole thread has taken a turn for the absurd

[eastcoastbias]

Just as absurd as Westbrook supporting cast? Playing with some guy named Durant.

Who knows with AV all I know as a Cavs fan...he's better lately when he's actually healthy. Maybe it's Irving... Maybe it's age. I would argue he entered his prime before Irving arrived.