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Please tell us how the government "oppresses" you. (I strongly disagree with your insulting euphemism)
Questionable benefits?
Like a strong public school system? An extensive university system? A strong park system? Two of the 20 most productive Metro economies in the world?
Any number of ways the NYS government is oppressive. Lets start with concealed handgun laws-in NYS it is very expensive and time consuming to get a permit even to OWN a handgun. Months long wait, with interviews with your neighbors on your desirability to have their permission to exercise your right to self defense. I don't know any other state that requires a permit just to own a handgun (not carry), though there are some other backwards states around.The utter foolishness of NY semi-auto laws and bans on standard capacity magazines is another example.
The need to have building permits to do simple home maintenance. The overzealous police agencies that spend far more time generating revenue through traffic tickets than catching criminals. Off-highway vehicle use-can you even ride an ATV or dirt bike into town on a public road in the state? Access to public lands in general-I might be wrong, but can you even go in the state forests and just set up and "disperse camp" outside of a designated, usually pay, campground? Strong park system? 20 years ago at least, the state parks, while very pricey even just to drive through, had major infrastructure problems, with buildings, roads and bridges falling apart. Schools were nothing to write home about (I should know, graduated from one). But hey, we had the some of the highest paid teachers, garbage men and road workers in the country, with the best benefits.
We haven't even gotten to taxes-among the highest in the country. 20 years ago my little home in the country on less than an acre of land, that I bought for $60k, was taxed at $2700 per year. What is the sales tax rate now? IIRC it was upwards of 8% even when I left. Income tax rates were right up there. Idaho has income and sales tax (many states only have either, not both), but not at the rate of NY. Electric rates and gas tax-aren't they also about the highest in the country? What's a building permit cost these days? Mine was $75. My current place is on 20 acres, on a lake and assesses rather nicely....yet taxes are <$2k per year. We have more and more accessible parks than NY ever did. Schools are among the lowest funded in the country-but money doesn't buy results. Our students are above average for performance-we actually expect results for our investment. So tell me...just what are you getting for your money? Other states do more, with a smaller, more distributed population, for less money. NYS is rated as the second worst state do do business in, behind only California.
New York has some beautiful countryside. Areas along Lake Ontario, the St. Lawrence Seaway, Adirondacks and Finger Lakes region are all very nice, as much so as much of the country. It is too bad that there are no mountains though. It's just a shame that NY politics and public policy ruin a great state. Is NYS still loosing population? Is much of the Buffalo/Tonawanda and Rochester waterfront still mile after mile of rusty, crumbling factories and warehouses? Are 1/3 of the storefronts in Niagara Falls, Lockport and other cities still boarded up?
It's actually even more than that. Attitudes are much different. In New York, there is an acceptance for government intrusion into individual lives. Things like the gun laws and need for permits, licenses and fees for every little thing. Other areas actually have an acceptance in people taking personal responsibility for their lives and actions, not dependency on the government for solutions. Some of that is just a rural vs urban thing-even in NY, rural residents were more independent and self sufficient than in urban areas. But even in similar areas, there is a much different "vibe" in places in the west (and mid-Atlantic/south from what I've seen) than in the northeast. Even something as simple as the newspaper-you don't realize just now much of a left-leaning Democratic mouthpiece the Buffalo Evening News is until you read a paper from another area. Few places outside of NYC would accept a "nanny" mayor telling them what they can eat and how large a pop they can drink.
Like I say, I don't hold any animosity-plenty of people line what NYS has to offer. That's why we have 50 states, people have the chance to find one they like. Best wishes to residents and old friends and family in the state.
Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 05-20-2014 at 09:45 PM..
NYS is terrible for the reasons you mentioned and much much more. Hope you can move to a welcoming and growing state, such as SC, with one of the fastest growing economies in the country. We would welcome you and your beliefs with open arms.
Toyman at Jewel Lake:
Progressives are always in denial. They just can't fathom that it is their policies that cause so much misery among so many people. Thank God there are better places to move to! The hell with them, let them wallow in their own misery.
Toyman at Jewel Lake:
Progressives are always in denial. They just can't fathom that it is their policies that cause so much misery among so many people. Thank God there are better places to move to! The hell with them, let them wallow in their own misery.
Progressives aren't the angry ones
Misery aside, all the economic indicators point to progressive policies as being superior to conservative policies. New York City is #2 in private sector high-tech job creation since the recession. Buffalo and New York City both have had positive in-migration since the recession.
Any number of ways the NYS government is oppressive. Lets start with concealed handgun laws-in NYS it is very expensive and time consuming to get a permit even to OWN a handgun. Months long wait, with interviews with your neighbors on your desirability to have their permission to exercise your right to self defense. I don't know any other state that requires a permit just to own a handgun (not carry), though there are some other backwards states around.The utter foolishness of NY semi-auto laws and bans on standard capacity magazines is another example.
Let's start with the word oppressive. While I can respect your opinion, I think "oppressive" is a disrespectful term. Slavery is oppressive. Dictatorships are oppressive. There are real people in the world dealing with a true oppressive government. Any government in the US is at worst, inconvenient.
I think the gun laws in New York are a mixed bag. I personally feel every law-abiding citizen should be able to own and carry. There shouldn't be a "may issue" provision. I agree with you on that. However, the semi-auto laws make sense in my view because citizens should not have military grade weapons. That requires law enforcement to pack similar weaponry to carry out their job effectively. I don't want the police to be a military. That is martial law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake
The need to have building permits to do simple home maintenance. The overzealous police agencies that spend far more time generating revenue through traffic tickets than catching criminals. Off-highway vehicle use-can you even ride an ATV or dirt bike into town on a public road in the state? Access to public lands in general-I might be wrong, but can you even go in the state forests and just set up and "disperse camp" outside of a designated, usually pay, campground? Strong park system? 20 years ago at least, the state parks, while very pricey even just to drive through, had major infrastructure problems, with buildings, roads and bridges falling apart. Schools were nothing to write home about (I should know, graduated from one). But hey, we had the some of the highest paid teachers, garbage men and road workers in the country, with the best benefits.
New York is consistently in the top of the country in public education.. so I don't know where you are coming from with this. And yes, teachers here are paid well. In some states, teacher pay is down right disgraceful. Their education suffers because of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake
We haven't even gotten to taxes-among the highest in the country. 20 years ago my little home in the country on less than an acre of land, that I bought for $60k, was taxed at $2700 per year. What is the sales tax rate now? IIRC it was upwards of 8% even when I left. Income tax rates were right up there. Idaho has income and sales tax (many states only have either, not both), but not at the rate of NY. Electric rates and gas tax-aren't they also about the highest in the country? What's a building permit cost these days? Mine was $75. My current place is on 20 acres, on a lake and assesses rather nicely....yet taxes are <$2k per year. We have more and more accessible parks than NY ever did. Schools are among the lowest funded in the country-but money doesn't buy results. Our students are above average for performance-we actually expect results for our investment. So tell me...just what are you getting for your money? Other states do more, with a smaller, more distributed population, for less money. NYS is rated as the second worst state do do business in, behind only California.
Idaho doesn't have 19 million people. Other states don't have 19 million people. Of the more populated states, all of them have higher rates of poverty. California fairs closest to New York, but has the same "taxation and regulation" problems you speak of. I constantly have to remind people that nothing is free. More people is more taxation.
Income tax most will pay 5-6% on their income in a given year, which is about "normal" for most states that impose an income tax. Sales tax is 4%, with another 4-5% depending on county. However, food is exempt from sales tax (not every state does this). Clothing is also exempt from state sales tax.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake
New York has some beautiful countryside. Areas along Lake Ontario, the St. Lawrence Seaway, Adirondacks and Finger Lakes region are all very nice, as much so as much of the country. It is too bad that there are no mountains though. It's just a shame that NY politics and public policy ruin a great state. Is NYS still loosing population? Is much of the Buffalo/Tonawanda and Rochester waterfront still mile after mile of rusty, crumbling factories and warehouses? Are 1/3 of the storefronts in Niagara Falls, Lockport and other cities still boarded up?
Actually no. You should visit sometime. Buffalo has grown at a rate of almost 4% per year since the recession. It has positive in-migration.
New York has never been loosing population due to birth replacement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake
It's actually even more than that. Attitudes are much different. In New York, there is an acceptance for government intrusion into individual lives. Things like the gun laws and need for permits, licenses and fees for every little thing. Other areas actually have an acceptance in people taking personal responsibility for their lives and actions, not dependency on the government for solutions. Some of that is just a rural vs urban thing-even in NY, rural residents were more independent and self sufficient than in urban areas. But even in similar areas, there is a much different "vibe" in places in the west (and mid-Atlantic/south from what I've seen) than in the northeast. Even something as simple as the newspaper-you don't realize just now much of a left-leaning Democratic mouthpiece the Buffalo Evening News is until you read a paper from another area. Few places outside of NYC would accept a "nanny" mayor telling them what they can eat and how large a pop they can drink.
Left leaning Democratic policies work better than right-leaning Conservative policies. The empirical data proves it - education rates, pregnacy rates, poverty, obesity, smoking, average IQ, Federal dollar subsidy. Just compare "blue" states vs. "red" states. It's not what right-leaning folks want to hear but data is data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake
Like I say, I don't hold any animosity-plenty of people line what NYS has to offer. That's why we have 50 states, people have the chance to find one they like. Best wishes to residents and old friends and family in the state.
Left leaning Democratic policies work better than right-leaning Conservative policies. The empirical data proves it - education rates, pregnacy rates, poverty, obesity, smoking, average IQ, Federal dollar subsidy. Just compare "blue" states vs. "red" states. It's not what right-leaning folks want to hear but data is data.
New York is consistently in the top of the country in public education.. so I don't know where you are coming from with this. And yes, teachers here are paid well. In some states, teacher pay is down right disgraceful. Their education suffers because of it.
I'm not quite sure what standard you are using for that statement. Yes, NY does SPEND among the most for public education, yet the results, in terms of student performance are average or below. Idaho is one of the lowest spenders on public primary education, yet our students perform better than New Yorkers...
When it comes to education, throwing money at it doesn't fix the problem. Granted, we do have cultural differences between the states that contributes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Idaho doesn't have 19 million people. Other states don't have 19 million people. Of the more populated states, all of them have higher rates of poverty. California fairs closest to New York, but has the same "taxation and regulation" problems you speak of. I constantly have to remind people that nothing is free. More people is more taxation.
The very fact that NY has 19 million people means they have a huge tax base. They are also crammed into a relatively small area-even upstate NY. Which means the cost of providing services should be very low compared to a much more dispersed rural state. You have economies of scale in services provided. You don't have one house on a mile of road to maintain-you might have 100. You don't have to provide services to a very dispersed population. Schools don't typically service an area with a 50 mile radius, with the associated high transportation costs. All of which means that it SHOULD cost far less to provide services in those areas, with corresponding MUCH lower per-capita tax collection. Yet in NY that is far from the case. What you do have is some of the highest compensated public employees in the nation, and, if I am not mistaken, among the highest rate of public sector vs private sector employees. So, I have to ask...what services do you get for your tax dollars that other states don't provide for less?
Toyman,
As a hunter and outdoor enthusiast, I can understand some of your frustration. I am in the process of applying for my pistol permit in NY. It is a hassle. I took the safety course last week ($60 3hr course) and my take-away was I spent 2.5 of the 3 hrs being told how to navigate the application process, state forms, county form, what each town requires, etc. One 15 min break and about 15 min of actual gun safety! I believe I will now pay around $25 to file the form downtown and $110 for electronic fingerprints by a 3rd party company. Then wait months for the permit. Some are saying it's currently 8 months due to how far behind Erie county is. Insane...
When I lived in TX, I went to the gun show, found the gun I wanted, did my NICS check, paid and left with my purchase. Now see in TX you don't need a permit to own but you do need a permit to carry concealed. The TX concealed permit process is similar to the NYS process with the notable exceptions being 1) there isn't a multiple month wait and 2) you do not have to write in an explanation for a judge to review as to why you wish to have a concealed carry permit.
So basically yeah, the NYS process is cumbersome and expensive.
As for the ATV stuff, I don't find it much different than in TX. It seems nobody cares about ATV riders rights in any state. I actually registered and got NY plate for my Rancher. Thinking back on it I'm not sure why. I do occasionally ride it down a seasonal use road to a buddies hunting camp, but that's about it. Haven't found any cool places to take it that don't require joining a club or paying a daily fee. That was the same in TX. There were a couple ATV off-road parks on private property you could go to. No state parks or land for ATV use though.. Lame...
Taxes... They vary so much around here. I just bought a cabin on 25 acres for approx $40k and my taxes are $800 a yr. This is in Catt Co. near Franklinville. For all I know they could raise the taxes significantly next yr, but for now it's very reasonable. For the $$ I could not have within 90 min of Dallas what I have here 90 min from Buffalo. And that is a big deal to me. Additionally, we have 1000's of acres of state forest land that we can hunt on. In TX this doesn't exist. I had to lease hunting land on a yearly basis - at a cost of about $2000. So I'm saving big $$$ on that because my camp is right next to Bush Hill, plus I was able to afford my own acreage and cabin. What a life I have in New York!!
All things considered, I don't think of WNY govt as being overly intrusive - I think of it as being poorly run, inefficient and wasteful in many cases. There really isn't much "wild west, anything goes" anywhere outside of the very most rural areas of our country. Gov't entities touch on many facets of our daily lives no matter where you live. Everyone has taxes, police, laws, etc. I don't mind this because I'm a law-biding citizen. I would like gov't to use my tax $$ in a responsible way and create legislation that is fair and balanced. I do agree with you on the pay we give to un-skilled govt workers is out-of-whack and I know we are collectively paying for a lot of legacy sweetheart deals from yrs gone by. I wish there were simple solutions to these problems but they exist in all places to varying degrees. It's likely more noticeable in places like WNY where we have suffered population losses and there are fewer people paying for the sins of the past. (full disclosure, I work in the private sector for a publicly traded fortune 500 company so I do not have any stake in preserving a bloated wasteful gov't)
Bottom line: I think you and I would get along great if we met, even if we have slightly differing views on things.
Opin_Yunated:
Thank's for proving my point you are indeed in denial.
Quote:
"I think the gun laws in New York are a mixed bag. I personally feel every law-abiding citizen should be able to own and carry. There shouldn't be a "may issue" provision. I agree with you on that. However, the semi-auto laws make sense in my view because citizens should not have military grade weapons. That requires law enforcement to pack similar weaponry to carry out their job effectively. I don't want the police to be a military. That is martial law.
Civilians for the most part are not in possession of "military grade weapons" as those semi-auto's are not fully automatic weapons, there is a difference. Nor are civilians in possession of tanks, rocket launchers, armored vehicles, hand grenades, etc. Law enforcement agencies already have fully automatic weapons at their disposal, and are far better armed than civilians, and are already a quasi military organization. The intended purpose of the 2nd Amendment is protection against tyranny, so technically civilians should be able to own such weapons. The types of weapons that are protected under the 2nd Amendment are those that are in common use. The Supreme Court already addressed that in the "Heller" decision. (See below) Semi automatic rifles and handguns do indeed fall under that category as tens of millions of them are owned, are still being sold and are being used by their lawful owners for lawful purposes. I agree with you that New York should be a "shall issue" state as opposed to "may issue". Arizona where I live is a "Constitutional Carry" state which means no permit is required to own or carry a handgun either openly or concealed. Same for Alaska, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Vermont, and Wyoming. Legislation is pending in 17 other states to allow this. Four other States do not require a license to carry but have limitations for unlicensed open and/or concealed carry.
Quote:
"Obviously the amendment does not apply to arms that can not be hand carried--It's to keep and 'bear' so it doesn't apply to cannons. But I suppose there are hand held rocket launchers that can bring down airplanes, that will have to be decided."-- "The 2nd Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding."--- Antonin Scalia (Heller vs DC) www.law.cornell.edu/suplt
Opin_Yunated:
Thank's for proving my point you are indeed in denial.
Civilians for the most part are not in possession of "military grade weapons" as those semi-auto's are not fully automatic weapons, there is a difference. Nor are civilians in possession of tanks, rocket launchers, armored vehicles, hand grenades, etc. Law enforcement agencies already have fully automatic weapons at their disposal, and are far better armed than civilians, and are already a quasi military organization. The intended purpose of the 2nd Amendment is protection against tyranny, so technically civilians should be able to own such weapons. The types of weapons that are protected under the 2nd Amendment are those that are in common use. The Supreme Court already addressed that in the "Heller" decision. (See below) Semi automatic rifles and handguns do indeed fall under that category as tens of millions of them are owned, are still being sold and are being used by their lawful owners for lawful purposes. I agree with you that New York should be a "shall issue" state as opposed to "may issue". Arizona where I live is a "Constitutional Carry" state which means no permit is required to own or carry a handgun either openly or concealed. Same for Alaska, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Vermont, and Wyoming. Legislation is pending in 17 other states to allow this. Four other States do not require a license to carry but have limitations for unlicensed open and/or concealed carry.
I'm going to be very direct and say the 2nd Amendment in that sense is an embarrassment. I respect people's right to carry. I have no problems with concealed handguns for personal protection. However, this tyranny BS is obsolete and illogical. It is just a right-wing talking point to fire up their base. Civilians will not stand up to an army of drones. There are far too many better factors at play that prevent some totalitarian government takeover of the U.S than our personal firearms. We need to stop kidding ourselves.
The reason most people want background checks and gun restrictions is because of the embarrassing displays by the rabid gun fanatics. Like I said, if you want to own a gun.. that is your right. By all means conceal and carry. Protect your property and family. People just don't want to see these weapons every day in public places. I don't want to see gun fanatics bringing assault rifles into Chipotle when I'm buying a burrito, and I know mothers will agree with me.
The logic as to why New York takes such a strong stance on guns is simply more good than bad. New York has the most populous city in the country. New York City has one of the lowest per-capita gun crime rates in the country when compared to other Large Metros. Gun bans don't have anything to do with this?
No matter what one believes, a city with the population density of New York will never be an environment conducive to open carry. It is just common sense.
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