Jerry Brown takes a hard look at Prop. 13 (here comes the tax man) (San Francisco: real estate, foreclosure)

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by imcurious

Not true. Where I live, there was a provision for seniors to DELAY taxes until death or sale. That has gone away due to "budget issues," but such a provision could defray at least seniors from taking a hit in real time, IF IT IS NECESSARY. Lots of seniors are rolling in dough, so it is not an issue for everyone.

So it's time to go after seniors... just change the rules and take what's theirs?

You have proved my point... Sacramento HAD a provision whereby Seniors could delay payment of Taxes... it was suspended by a simple vote... Thank Goodness Prop 13 is part of the CA Constitution!

Prop 13 needs to go away, asap. There is no excuse for it. Not now. It is discriminatory and antiquated. Most of the seniors it was supposed to help in the 70's are dead now anyway and the new seniors can just get used to it or the counties can have the deferment program.

How can you say it is discriminatory??? The Supreme Court Ruled is doesn't violate the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution...

Prop 13 was about sending a message to the Government that the people of California are no longer willing to provide a blank check. California has had more than 30 years to get used to it and we like as every poll shows.

When it was created, it applied to everyone who bought prior to 1976. And that included young people at the time.
[/color]

Prop 13 makes ZERO reference to age... it's beauty is in it's simplicity... imagine a system where tax is assessed on what you actually paid vs... what some bureaucrat guesses it's worth?

[RCCCB]

Originally Posted by imcurious

Not true. Where I live, there was a provision for seniors to DELAY taxes until death or sale. That has gone away due to "budget issues," but such a provision could defray at least seniors from taking a hit in real time, IF IT IS NECESSARY. Lots of seniors are rolling in dough, so it is not an issue for everyone.

Prop 13 needs to go away, asap. There is no excuse for it. Not now. It is discriminatory and antiquated. Most of the seniors it was supposed to help in the 70's are dead now anyway and the new seniors can just get used to it or the counties can have the deferment program.

When it was created, it applied to everyone who bought prior to 1976. And that included young people at the time.

You are not getting it.
When people bought their homes in the past the costs of their homes were maybe 35-67k. At that time families only earned $1.80 an hour. Maybe now they pay $1,400 a year for taxes.
A neighbor who bought in a bubble market might have bought in with taxes at $6000 with a wage of $35 an hour.

The person paying $1400 in their day only had average yearly wages of maybe $9000 cannot ever compete with inflated wages of younger generations.
The person today with the $6000 taxes have usually a wage of about 80k to 125k.

Prop 13 came about because every generation has had higher wages, inflated home prices and therefore inflated property taxes.

If people made $9000 in the day and now have $1400 in taxes, that is 15.55% of their income.
$6000 would be 67% of their old wages to property taxes.

If a modern earner takes their 80k and pays $6000 in property taxes, they are paying only 7.5% of their wages on property taxes.

So the old school people are already paying 15.5% of their old income on taxes today and the modern day people are paying less than half of what they do as a percentage of their income.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by imcurious

Not true. Where I live, there was a provision for seniors to DELAY taxes until death or sale. That has gone away due to "budget issues," but such a provision could defray at least seniors from taking a hit in real time, IF IT IS NECESSARY. Lots of seniors are rolling in dough, so it is not an issue for everyone.[/quote
So it's time to go after seniors... just change the rules and take what's theirs?

You have proved my point... Sacramento HAD a provision whereby Seniors could delay payment of Taxes... it was suspended by a simple vote... Thank Goodness Prop 13 is part of the CA Constitution...

Prop 13 needs to go away, asap. There is no excuse for it. Not now. It is discriminatory and antiquated. Most of the seniors it was supposed to help in the 70's are dead now anyway and the new seniors can just get used to it or the counties can have the deferment program.

How can you say it is discriminatory??? The Supreme Court Ruled is doesn't violate the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution...

Prop 13 was about sending a message to the Government that the people of California are no longer willing to provide a blank check. California has had more than 30 years to get used to it and we like as every poll shows.

When it was created, it applied to everyone who bought prior to 1976. And that included young people at the time.
[/color][/b]

Prop 13 makes ZERO reference to age... it's beauty is in it's simplicity... imagine a system where tax is assessed on what you actually paid vs... what some bureaucrat guesses it's worth?

[imcurious]

It is discriminatory and not fair. On any block, there are people who owned their homes prior to 1976 paying nothing for taxes, and right next door, people paying exorbitant amounts. I know it is based on the cost of housing, duh, but it didn't take into account how much housing would be inflated.

In the 1970's I bought a house for $30k - sold the same house for $375k in the 90's, BEFORE PROPERTY VALUES WENT UP SO DRASTICALLY . . . eventually that same house sold for $790-something . . . think about it. There are still many people in that neighborhood who bought before me and bought the homes for $20-25k. Now those same homes cost in the $600-800k range. Inflation in wages does not follow ups and downs in housing bubbles, etc.

It is just wrong. Even if you look at it from the perspective of the people who bought in the early 90's, it is wrong, but if they bought prior to 1976, it is criminal.

Those people are not funding anything in CA and that is why CA is bankrupt.

Jerry Brown is a SMART MAN. He is no idiot. He will do what is right if the public wants to be smart.

[MtnSurfer]

There was an interesting broadcast today on Southern California Public Radio looking at the different sides of Prop 13:

Jerry Brown bear hugs California’s third rail: reforming Proposition 13

The thing is there are many facets to Prop 13, some of which are better than others. So the answer may not be a simple black and white solution - like repeal it vs. leave it exactly the same as it has always has been. Although forum discussions tend to go this way, more knee jerk, one extreme or the other. Ultimately there could be a reform of Prop 13 without completely repealing it. For example there are many known loopholes on the commercial side in which businesses fully exploit such tax law loopholes. This occurs when a commerical property changes hands yet never gets reassessed, thereby bypassing the intent of the law through it's inherent flaws. And so the commerical side could very well be addressed separately from the residential side to deal with some of these exploits and inequities.

If Prop 13 did get fully repealed there would have to be better tax laws crafted to replace it with. And this would also be harder to approve state wide. So strategically reforming it makes more sense from a legal and political point of view. And Jerry is a pretty shrewd politician. I give him credit for being willing to address such a controversial issue as Prop 13. IMO, it needs reform. The question comes down to in which parts and how much? These are areas which many lawyers and politicans will to examine, debate and discuss. Then depending on the the degree of change a vote of the people may also be required.

Derek

[UB50]

It's a shame rents aren't based on what the property owner is paying in taxes. We'd see a lot of rents going down in a hurry.

[imcurious]

The wheel does not have to be reinvented. Which states have fair property tax laws and what do such laws look like? It is not "rocket science," as "they" say . . . It just needs a common sense approach and there can be a provision for counties to defer the taxes of seniors in certain income brackets until death or sale (the income brackets should be low income so as not to burden the tax system) and eventually that money is recouped as people die. Happens every day

[RCCCB]

Originally Posted by imcurious

It is discriminatory and not fair. On any block, there are people who owned their homes prior to 1976 paying nothing for taxes, and right next door, people paying exorbitant amounts. I know it is based on the cost of housing, duh, but it didn't take into account how much housing would be inflated.

In the 1970's I bought a house for $30k - sold the same house for $375k in the 90's, BEFORE PROPERTY VALUES WENT UP SO DRASTICALLY . . . eventually that same house sold for $790-something . . . think about it. There are still many people in that neighborhood who bought before me and bought the homes for $20-25k. Now those same homes cost in the $600-800k range. Inflation in wages does not follow ups and downs in housing bubbles, etc.

It is just wrong. Even if you look at it from the perspective of the people who bought in the early 90's, it is wrong, but if they bought prior to 1976, it is criminal.

Those people are not funding anything in CA and that is why CA is bankrupt.

Jerry Brown is a SMART MAN. He is no idiot. He will do what is right if the public wants to be smart.

Jerry Brown is an idiot who a few think is a smart man.
Are you aware this dolt allowed unions into the monopoly of state employment? Means the upcoming retirement deficits of hundreds of billions in this state are because of your so called smart man. That is the same smart man who tried to appoint some communists to various things in his first round as Governor.

I don't personally believe you know any of the history of Jerry Brown beyond what somebody told you, I and many here who would never vote for him actually lived with him before and he was a disaster.

[RCCCB]

Originally Posted by imcurious

The wheel does not have to be reinvented. Which states have fair property tax laws and what do such laws look like? It is not "rocket science," as "they" say . . . It just needs a common sense approach and there can be a provision for counties to defer the taxes of seniors in certain income brackets until death or sale (the income brackets should be low income so as not to burden the tax system) and eventually that money is recouped as people die. Happens every day

The government in many cases already confiscates almost half of every estate upon death now with the death tax and the government didn't earn any of it.
You have a fundamental flaw in your thinking on this subject IMO. You think we have a lack of taxation problem. I think we pay too many taxes now. What we indeed do have is a massive spending problem that needs to be cut way back.

Maybe cut California state government in half.
Make most all great society programs available to people for at most a half year unless they are massively handicapped.
Fire at least a third of the government employees and reduce their pay to less than what is found in the private sector. Take away their health care unless they pay for it out of their salary, not as a benefit.
Let them really pay for their own retirements and stop the 100k investments with 3.5 million dollar draws in retirements.
That is a good start.

[imcurious]

Hate to say it, but with the state in dire straights, anyone who thinks "cutting the government in half" is the solution to the problem is not too bright.

I am very familiar with Jerry Brown. He is BRILLIANT. Your simpleton politics (i.e., fear of the boogyman "communists") should have died with the Cold War.

Come into the modern age.