the culprits (of California's mess) are not public employees (crimes, mortgage)

[jkbatca]

Originally Posted by OC Investor2

A couple go out and buy a big house. Then lease a pair of BMW's. Take a few european vacations, putting them on the credit cards. But its ok,they can make all the payments.

Then the wife loses her job. The mcmansion is foreclosed on. The cars are repo'ed. They have to declare ch. 11.

Whose fault is it? The couples or the employer that laid her off? By your logic we should blame the employer who cut the income. I would blame the couple for overspending.

Exactly. Although Wall Street is guilty, however the depth of the housing bubble could not have been reached unless just about everyone in America was in on it. I've seen many examples listed above of people buying toy haulers, homes they never would normally afford, etc. Is it the bank's fault these people could not show self restraint and make rational decisions?

[Oerdin]

California actually has one of the lowest state employee to population ratios in the country. They also tend to get paid less then civilian counter parts who have the same education and experience so claiming public workers are to much of a burden in this state is a complete lie.

[yeahthatguy]

Originally Posted by Oerdin

California actually has one of the lowest state employee to population ratios in the country. They also tend to get paid less then civilian counter parts who have the same education and experience so claiming public workers are to much of a burden in this state is a complete lie.

I am curious how California has :
-> The lowest state employee population ratio in the country
-> Public workers are paid less then civilian counterparts w/ same education experience
-> Some of the highest taxes in the country

And yet runs itself into fiscal issues amounting to $23-$25 billion deficits a year .. w/ a $12.5billion additional contribution to revenue due to additional tax hikes .. If you can quickly explain the logic/math, I'd sincerely appreciate it.

Something obviously is the problem here and it isn't more tax revenue.
On the issue of this thread.. Man, this was covered about 3-4 years ago. Everyone rode the boom.. EVERYONE.. and on the side of the bust, as it historically has been established, not everyone is created equal... So unfair huh? Yeah, it is .. So, why don't public workers and every American for that matter.. Instead of storming govt. buildings to demand more is bled from tax payers :
http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ap_wisconsin_budget_protests_ll_ssh.jpg (broken link) Why don't they storm Wallstreet the same? But they don't right? They don't RIght ? Alright then.. That's why they get bailed out and will continue to get bailed out and the rest of you will get the short end of the stick. Time and time again the guy from the next town comes in and pillages you .. Instead of organizing and fighting against the real threat, you turn on your neighbor .. Go and pillage him. It's quite ironic.

So yeah, wallstreet should keep screwing people over. It's obvious people don't care. If you're curious on why the craziness is happening over in Egypt/Middle East, feel free to read :
Is Bernanke To Blame For The Rising Global Revolutionary Wave? | zero hedge
Tired (And Broke) From All The "QE Is Just An Asset Swap" Rhetoric? Then Read This | zero hedge
Guest Post: Rising Food Prices Push Up Inflation Significantly | zero hedge
US 2011 Inflation: 10.6%? | zero hedge


Yeah, reality/truth is a hard pill to swallow.. The ultimate irony you will find in discovering it is that people most often play the biggest roll in screwing themselves over. A smarter/more cunning man uses individuals' greed/selfishness against themselves... As the world turns..

[Bulldogdad]

Originally Posted by yeahthatguy

I am curious how California has :
-> The lowest state employee population ratio in the country
-> Public workers are paid less then civilian counterparts w/ same education experience
-> Some of the highest taxes in the country

And yet runs itself into fiscal issues amounting to $23-$25 billion deficits a year .. w/ a $12.5billion additional contribution to revenue due to additional tax hikes .. If you can quickly explain the logic/math, I'd sincerely appreciate it.

Something obviously is the problem here and it isn't more tax revenue.
On the issue of this thread.. Man, this was covered about 3-4 years ago. Everyone rode the boom.. EVERYONE.. and on the side of the bust, as it historically has been established, not everyone is created equal... So unfair huh? Yeah, it is .. So, why don't public workers and every American for that matter.. Instead of storming govt. buildings to demand more is bled from tax payers :
Why don't they storm Wallstreet the same? But they don't right? They don't RIght ? Alright then.. That's why they get bailed out and will continue to get bailed out and the rest of you will get the short end of the stick. Time and time again the guy from the next town comes in and pillages you .. Instead of organizing and fighting against the real threat, you turn on your neighbor .. Go and pillage him. It's quite ironic.

So yeah, wallstreet should keep screwing people over. It's obvious people don't care. If you're curious on why the craziness is happening over in Egypt/Middle East, feel free to read :
Is Bernanke To Blame For The Rising Global Revolutionary Wave? | zero hedge
Tired (And Broke) From All The "QE Is Just An Asset Swap" Rhetoric? Then Read This | zero hedge
Guest Post: Rising Food Prices Push Up Inflation Significantly | zero hedge
US 2011 Inflation: 10.6%? | zero hedge


Yeah, reality/truth is a hard pill to swallow.. The ultimate irony you will find in discovering it is that people most often play the biggest roll in screwing themselves over. A smarter/more cunning man uses individuals' greed/selfishness against themselves... As the world turns..

Good point MOD CUT

[mateo45]

MOD CUT

Originally Posted by NewToCA

Though not arguing with your sentiments or the article, if you really want to look at this in a more comprehensive way I'd also suggest you read this article published some time ago by the very liberal Village Voice.
HUD's Andrew Cuomo made a series of decisions between 1997 and 2001...that helped plunge Fannie and Freddie into the subprime markets without putting in place the means to monitor their increasingly risky investments. He turned the Federal Housing Administration mortgage program into a sweetheart lender with sky-high loan ceilings and no money down, and he legalized what a federal judge has branded "kickbacks" to brokers that have fueled the sale of overpriced and unsupportable loans.

Andrew Cuomo and Fannie and Freddie - Page 1 - News - New York - Village Voice

There's no question re: the "blame" shared by the subprime market and the many "incentives" for making those loans, that came from both the public and the private sectors. But nevertheless, sub-primes are still largely just an "easy to digest", "sound-bite" explanation for the financial "melt-down" that pales in comparison to Wall Street's responsibility in recklessly "re-packaging" those loans (into "Mortgage-backed Securities"), and then leveraging them many times over (some as much as 19 times their value)!

In fact, the total estimated value of all sub-prime mortgages (in default or otherwise) is less than $2 trillion.

The total estimated value of all "mortgage-backed securities" is aprox. $10 trillion.

While the current estimated value of all Derivatives trading worldwide is over $600 trillion, of which nearly $50 trillion are in OTC Derivatives (including "credit default swaps" and "mortgage-backed securities")!

So it may not be as easy to "digest" as the sub-primes (or as politically convenient an excuse), but that's why the economy is in a shambles... worldwide (and because the Derivates market is largely unregulated, no one is still really sure of the extent of the total problem)!

[Robert McPinto]

I don't get it... what does 'wall street greed' have to do with lavish salaries and benefits for government workers... Wall Street <> CA local government!

Stop playing the blame game and start pay cuts like the rest of us!

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by yeahthatguy

I am curious how California has :
-> The lowest state employee population ratio in the country
-> Public workers are paid less then civilian counterparts w/ same education experience
-> Some of the highest taxes in the country

California has about the third lowest ratio of state workers to population of all the states and has always been at the low end.

According to a recent study published by two U.C. Berkeley economics professors, civil servants in California make on average of seven percent less than people with similar jobs in the private sector. However, if you factor in benefits, their total package is about on par with their private counterparts.

Higher education (primarily the University of California and the California State University) accounts for more than one-third (37 percent) of all state workers. This is the same as the national average. In second place is corrections, which accounts for 14 percent of all state workers in California, as compared to 11 percent nationally. The third largest category of state workers is hospital employees, who account for 10 percent of all state workers in California and nationally. These are some of the most highly compensated workers in the system.

Overall, the distribution of state workers in California is similar to the national pattern, with one exception. Nationally, state welfare workers account for 5 percent of all state employees; in California it’s less than 1 percent. These are not highly paid workers.

Here are some interesting figures:

•Among states whose government workers are less than 40 percent unionized, median per capita state debt is $2,238.

•Among states with between 40 and 60 percent of their government workers in public sector unions, the average debt is $3,609.

•Among states with more than 60 percent of the government workforce unionized, the average (median) per capita debt is $6,380.[/b]

CA ranks about 15th in tax burden of all the states as as percentage of personal income. However, even if it ranked last (AK has that honor), what's more important is how the taxes receipts are apportioned and spent. Simplistically put, CA's Legislature has never seen a penny of the people's money it didn't want and couldn't spend. Add to that the facts that: 1) CA has an over-reliance on income taxes for revenue which is unstable as personal fortunes rise and fall and; 2) Much if not most of CA's revenue is spoken for by categorical spending requirements established by statute and initiatives so there is little wiggle-room.

Back to state workers, they don't stand alone. Add to them all the county, special district, municipal and other public employees whose pay and benefits have grown significantly over the past several decades and you have obligations on government at all levels to be reckoned with.

[mateo45]

Originally Posted by Robert McPinto

I don't get it... what does 'wall street greed' have to do with lavish salaries and benefits for government workers... Wall Street <> CA local government!

Stop playing the blame game and start pay cuts like the rest of us!

What it has to "do" with, is why there's such a (largely conservative) "hue and cry" over the "excesses" of one, but not the other (which has been way more damaging, and worldwide)!

Or is the "Free Market" some sort of "Sacred Cow", where "fiscal conservatism" applies, but only so long as "it's not your ox that's being gored"....?

[Lovehound]

I think it's that damned California golden bear that's mucking things up! We should change our official state animal, downsize it to the golden mantled chipmunk.



[Wikipedia commons image]

[Curmudgeon]

What do you have against chipmunks?