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Old 06-14-2014, 07:42 PM
 
6,675 posts, read 4,280,482 times
Reputation: 8441

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post

I guess you've made me think for a minute here. Time for a clarification: I am a gun owner. I prefer to keep being a gun owner. I used frightening firepower in a war and the experience was frighteningly exciting even though frighteningly terrible.

But I am NOT actually "pro-gun". I am decidedly anti-gun. I think it would be swell if guns didn't exist at all. Guns suck.

However, since guns are part of the real world - and they are never going to go away, as you say - um, yeah, I'd prefer to keep mine in this reality.
Let me clarify. I meant that there are people who want to ban all guns. That will never happen nor should it.

Then there are people like our friend here who thinks there should be no limits at all. In fact, he refuses to say what kind of legislation he would support, meaning he supports none. He wants machine guns and God knows what else because it is his "constitutional right". These people call themselves law abiding citizens but they are not. They only obey laws they agree with.

Then there are rational people who own a gun but don't want or see the need to have enough weapons to invade Mexico. You seem to be in this category.
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Old 06-14-2014, 07:47 PM
 
6,675 posts, read 4,280,482 times
Reputation: 8441
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
Thousands of people have legal machine guns and yet we don't have a problem with people with legal machine guns committing crimes. So why should it be only a rich persons game?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Sorry. Lost me again here. Legal machine guns commit crimes? And we have no problem with that?
There also seems to be machine gun envy going on here.

They say that 1 in 5........
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Old 06-14-2014, 08:01 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,741 posts, read 16,361,136 times
Reputation: 19831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
Then there are rational people who own a gun but don't want or see the need to have enough weapons to invade Mexico. You seem to be in this category.
Well, in the spirit of full disclosure, I don't see any point in invading Mexico anyway. How about maybe the Bahamas?
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Old 06-14-2014, 08:22 PM
 
6,675 posts, read 4,280,482 times
Reputation: 8441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Well, in the spirit of full disclosure, I don't see any point in invading Mexico anyway. How about maybe the Bahamas?
Sign me up.
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Old 06-14-2014, 08:52 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,287 posts, read 9,825,905 times
Reputation: 6509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
All those items, including fists, can be used to protect against an attacker. Guns are simply the most powerful and efficient. But victims of crime who do not have guns do overpower armed attackers on a fairly regular basis. It is such an appealing concept that no such story goes unreported.

And the Constitution is changeable, amendable. It has been altered by amendments 27 times. For pretty good reasons.

Sorry. But you lost me here. Doesn't make a lick of sense. How can there be more defense of crimes - than crimes to defend against?

But anyway, I'd like to see where guns are used millions of times a year in self-defense. Please give me some more info on that.

Correct. Absolutely. Just like the arguments FAVORING guns are based on emotion. It's all based on emotions. If our personal and social decisions were based on rational logic these issues wouldn't even exist. Humans are distinguished from other life forms by our mental ability to analyze rationally. Funny how so few of us use that capacity with any real regularity and significance, no?

Anti-gun people FEEL the evil inherent in guns. Pro-gun people FEEL the need for the power and equalization a gun provides - even though the number of people who will ever be in a situation where a gun is the best answer is barely statistically chartable.

I guess you've made me think for a minute here. Time for a clarification: I am a gun owner. I prefer to keep being a gun owner. I used frightening firepower in a war and the experience was frighteningly exciting even though frighteningly terrible.

But I am NOT actually "pro-gun". I am decidedly anti-gun. I think it would be swell if guns didn't exist at all. Guns suck.

However, since guns are part of the real world - and they are never going to go away, as you say - um, yeah, I'd prefer to keep mine in this reality.
No one is proposing changing the second amendment now are they.

Defensive gun use does not require the attacker to have a gun.

Here is some info on defensive gun use, it is hard to get an exact number since not all DGU results in a police report.
Kleck-Gertz DGU Freq Study (gunsandcrime)

I am saying thousands have legal machine guns and they do not commit crimes with said machine guns.
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Old 06-14-2014, 08:56 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,287 posts, read 9,825,905 times
Reputation: 6509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
Let me clarify. I meant that there are people who want to ban all guns. That will never happen nor should it.

Then there are people like our friend here who thinks there should be no limits at all. In fact, he refuses to say what kind of legislation he would support, meaning he supports none. He wants machine guns and God knows what else because it is his "constitutional right". These people call themselves law abiding citizens but they are not. They only obey laws they agree with.

Then there are rational people who own a gun but don't want or see the need to have enough weapons to invade Mexico. You seem to be in this category.
I never said I didn't support any regulation. I listed the current legislation that I didn't support, which means the current legislation in place I do support. You don't need to put words into my mouth.
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Old 06-14-2014, 09:15 PM
 
6,675 posts, read 4,280,482 times
Reputation: 8441
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
I never said I didn't support any regulation. I listed the current legislation that I didn't support, which means the current legislation in place I do support. You don't need to put words into my mouth.
I don't need to. I asked you a question that you still haven't answered.

I asked what legislation you support. You launched into what you didn't support. It's obvious that you're evading the question because you don't support any.

You want access to machine guns and think the second amendment gives you that right. It doesn't.

Who knows? Maybe the NSA is monitoring these forums to log all the people who think they have a right to whatever weapons they want.
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Old 06-14-2014, 09:35 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,741 posts, read 16,361,136 times
Reputation: 19831
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
Defensive gun use does not require the attacker to have a gun.
Oh. (and Holy crap!) Nothing quite like responding to threat with deadly force. Yes, I'm sure there are instances where this might be appropriate. But geezuz man, you are really going to try and use this as justification statistics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
Here is some info on defensive gun use, it is hard to get an exact number since not all DGU results in a police report.
Kleck-Gertz DGU Freq Study (gunsandcrime)
Uh-oh. I was afraid of this. The "Kleck Effect". Kleck and his "studies"have been undressed more than the king of Siam. I am not anti-gun. Please help guys like me / us out by using valid information only. K? Kleck is off by "an order of magnitude" at the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
I am saying thousands have legal machine guns and they do not commit crimes with said machine guns.
Oh. Okay. That sure wasn't clear before.
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Old 06-14-2014, 09:44 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,287 posts, read 9,825,905 times
Reputation: 6509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Oh. (and Holy crap!) Nothing quite like responding to threat with deadly force. Yes, I'm sure there are instances where this might be appropriate. But geezuz man, you are really going to try and use this as justification statistics?

Uh-oh. I was afraid of this. The "Kleck Effect". Kleck and his "studies"have been undressed more than the king of Siam. I am not anti-gun. Please help guys like me / us out by using valid information only. K? Kleck is off by "an order of magnitude" at the least.

Oh. Okay. That sure wasn't clear before.
Someone with fists can be a deadly threat especially when they are breaking into your house.

And even if it is off, the lowest end of all the studies is still 300k of defensive gun use per year which is more than criminal gun use. The simple fact is DGU happens often, many times by those who have no other means of protection. How often it happens is unknown, what is know is it does happens a lot and it happens more than gun crime.
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Old 06-14-2014, 09:48 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,287 posts, read 9,825,905 times
Reputation: 6509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
I don't need to. I asked you a question that you still haven't answered.

I asked what legislation you support. You launched into what you didn't support. It's obvious that you're evading the question because you don't support any.

You want access to machine guns and think the second amendment gives you that right. It doesn't.

Who knows? Maybe the NSA is monitoring these forums to log all the people who think they have a right to whatever weapons they want.
Maybe you can learn about our current gun regulations and you would know what I support. But that would require that you have knowledge of gun issues, which you obviously do not.

You still haven't been able to tell me what an "assault rifle" is. Since you are such a gun expert this should be a problem.
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