Should California Secede from US? (cost, safe, design)

[bigboibob]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

No, they are not. Prove it. The number of illegals has in fact diminished over the past six years. Do try to keep up.

And, you still haven't answered my question from earlier posts as to why Montana is such a great place when it's not number one in STEM education and employment, not #1 in manufacturing, has no trajectory in those directions, has high poverty rates (yes, we know it's from the reservations, but still, whatever the reason), etc etc etc.

If Montana is great, why does California have to be #1 to be a great place to live? What universal cataclysm happens if California isn't #1?

Undocumented Immigrants Flock To Get Driver's Licenses Under New California Law

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by bigboibob

Undocumented Immigrants Flock To Get Driver's Licenses Under New California Law

Yes big bob, California has many undocumented immigrants - who will now apply for licenses.

Which has what, exactly, to do with Trader's claim that legal citizens are leaving and being replaced by illegals - um, in droves?

[sithlord72]

I wish CA would leave and take its $25 billion debt with them. Only a matter of time before California comes crying to the Dear Leader with their hand out looking for a free handout to feed their illegals and their free medical care.

[Tulemutt]

Apparently some still are unaware that California contributes more money to the national treasury than all other states. In fact, more than most other states combined.

I guess "debt" is a very BIG word for those who don't realize "income" is even biggerer?

[bigboibob]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

Apparently some still are unaware that California contributes more money to the national treasury than all other states. In fact, more than most other states combined.

I guess "debt" is a very BIG word for those who don't realize "income" is even biggerer?

List of U.S. states by GDP per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

California is number 17. Below New York, New Jersey, Oregon, Washington, ect

California just has more people, nothing special

"California the most braggadocios state on social media"
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loca...284908271.html

California has flaws but Californians tend to down play them or straight up ignore them while greatly exaggerating positive attributes of California.

Example: California is a major tech hub turns into "California contributes more money than most states combined."

California has the best weather in the country, hands down.

Ignoring non-weather issues just fuels the fire that keep trolls coming because it's so obvious to everyone except Californians.

[Geezerrunner]

I would think some comparison of the situation in Scotland, Western Australia and the Canadian province of Quebec would be useful, as separatism has been discussed for years in these places, and actually put to a referendum.

For some insight as to how a state might fare after independence it might be worth looking at the breakup of the Russian Federation, or for the opposite, the reunification of Germany.

If you have some concrete examples then the discussion is less theoretical.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by bigboibob

List of U.S. states by GDP per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

California is number 17. Below New York, New Jersey, Oregon, Washington, ect

Very good, bob. Except for total irrelevance, of course. "Per capita" has no bearing on "total contribution". Which is what's at issue here. California, simply, factually stated, contributes more to the welfare of the nation than any other state. By far. And takes far less in return out of federal spending. There's just no way around it.

Originally Posted by bigboibob

California just has more people, nothing special

Actually bob, there IS something quite special about the reasons for that truth. And there are two sides to that coin, which I'll get back to presently. Hang on a minnite.

Originally Posted by bigboibob

"California the most braggadocios state on social media"
Californians Are Biggest Braggers on Social Media: Survey | NBC 7 San Diego

well bob, once again you totally ignore the laws of logical discourse: "Braggadociousness" has nothing - whatsoever - to do with truthfulness or untruthfulness.

Originally Posted by bigboibob

California has flaws but Californians tend to down play them or straight up ignore them while greatly exaggerating positive attributes of California.

Example: California is a major tech hub turns into "California contributes more money than most states combined."

No one here denying the state has challenges. Well, actually, it has only ONE challenge: too many people. That's it. Sums it up. 100%.

And, obviously, it has too many damn people for one reason alone: desirability. Número uno again.

Water, power, natural resources, environmental health, real estate costs - all would be fine with 1/3 or so the population. N'est-ce pas?

Oh, naturally you also want to point out the inefficiencies and clumsiness of governance, right? Yeah, I'm going to give that a total pass until you show me governments of scale or larger that are otherwise. Nature of the beast.

Originally Posted by bigboibob

California has the best weather in the country, hands down.

Ignoring non-weather issues just fuels the fire that keep trolls coming because it's so obvious to everyone except Californians.

bob, what's critical to understand about all debates and discussions and explorations is: truth prevails. Truths are the only foundation for ultimate success. This forum is conceived to provide seekers of truth information from which to derive useful decisions. My pleasure in being a contributor is in the role of being a good natured hyperbole and logic cop If you are motivated here to contribute toward the end of turning people away, I applaud your intent. But doing so through false representations is disingenuous - and will ultimately always tend to bite you where you sit.

Focus on California's one terrible flaw: desirability choking it to death with too many seekers. Encourage people to find their destinies in more accessible places.

I'll remain behind and sweep up.

[bigboibob]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

Very good, bob. Except for total irrelevance, of course. "Per capita" has no bearing on "total contribution". Which is what's at issue here. California, simply, factually stated, contributes more to the welfare of the nation than any other state. By far. And takes far less in return out of federal spending. There's just no way around it.
Actually bob, there IS something quite special about the reasons for that truth. And there are two sides to that coin, which I'll get back to presently. Hang on a minnite.

well bob, once again you totally ignore the laws of logical discourse: "Braggadociousness" has nothing - whatsoever - to do with truthfulness or untruthfulness.

No one here denying the state has challenges. Well, actually, it has only ONE challenge: too many people. That's it. Sums it up. 100%.

And, obviously, it has too many damn people for one reason alone: desirability. Número uno again.

Water, power, natural resources, environmental health, real estate costs - all would be fine with 1/3 or so the population. N'est-ce pas?

Oh, naturally you also want to point out the inefficiencies and clumsiness of governance, right? Yeah, I'm going to give that a total pass until you show me governments of scale or larger that are otherwise. Nature of the beast.

bob, what's critical to understand about all debates and discussions and explorations is: truth prevails. Truths are the only foundation for ultimate success. This forum is conceived to provide seekers of truth information from which to derive useful decisions. My pleasure in being a contributor is in the role of being a good natured hyperbole and logic cop If you are motivated here to contribute toward the end of turning people away, I applaud your intent. But doing so through false representations is disingenuous - and will ultimately always tend to bite you where you sit.

Focus on California's one terrible flaw: desirability choking it to death with too many seekers. Encourage people to find their destinies in more accessible places.

I'll remain behind and sweep up.

Nice try

Again false, California population density is only number 11(again behind New York and New Jersey)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...lation_density

Silence and anger is a sign of truth

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

Focus on California's one terrible flaw: desirability choking it to death with too many seekers. Encourage people to find their destinies in more accessible places.

I'll remain behind and sweep up.

More people leaving than moving in. That opens the question of desirability. Growth is primarily birth related.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by bigboibob

Nice try

Again false, California population density is only number 11(again behind New York and New Jersey)
List of U.S. states by population density - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Silence and anger is a sign of truth

bob, population density has nothing to do with any of this.
California has the nation's largest population. Period.
California contributes more to the national treasury than any other state. Period.
There are reasons for this.

Also - as before - you fail at logic: "silence and anger" are signs of many things. And not always truth in the slightest.

You know, a ways back I said several times that I thought you had a good noggin you just weren't bothering to dust off. The more of your posts I read the more I am tempted to retract that optimism.