California's political prisoners.... (San Francisco, Alameda: student loans, felons, home security)

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by happ

What's the saying about repeating mistakes is insane. So many simple minds influenced by emotion & fear [lots of Republicans on this board

We will never see improvement until we begin to devote attention to America. All the troubles of living in a safe & rationale society have been successfully mastered by all the nations of Europe yet some small minds can't grasp "common good".

Rather than go into debt over a pointless war we could now be leveraging revenue to protect Americans from selfish capitalists who's only concern is multi-national greed. Tonight John McCain warned that America is going to be "socialist" [for once a Republican is right but only 10 years behind the time].

this is not a republican/Democrat debate, this is a what laws are right and which are not. You can drop this crap. Should we assume you are more than a lib, maybe a socialist or even more left then that?

Nita

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by phloxy

I am reading this thread with some interest, and I wonder, at what point can we say that someone has paid his or her debt to society.

The three strikes law isn't really about a criminal paying their debt. It's more like a criminal proving they're a threat, proving that they don't have the ability to learn from their mistakes and instead find some lawful line of work. The law more or less assumes they will be back time after time, and that the only solution is to isolate them away from society forever.

It may not be fair to the criminal, but continuing to let them out of prison to commit more crimes is not fair to innocent people.

This law isn't about punishing the guilty. It's about protecting the innocent.

[phloxy]

Originally Posted by Lovehound

It's more like a criminal proving they're a threat, proving that they don't have the ability to learn from their mistakes and instead find some lawful line of work. The law more or less assumes they will be back time after time, and that the only solution is to isolate them away from society forever.

I agree that when people need to be protected from people who continue to commit crime after crime after crime, especially if these crimes are escalating in violence. But the idea that everyone will just find some lawful line of work assumes a lot about the kinds of opportunities available to everyone. Then pile on addiction, domestic violence, mental illness, and other problems, and it becomes even more difficult for some people to get where privileged people think they should be. We don't exactly send people out of prison with new tools for dealing with life either, and a lot of the time they're returning to the same family dynamics and circumstances that contributed to their committing crimes in the first place.

What is the first thing everyone asks on this forum? It's questions about where the good school districts are for their kids. A fair question, but we have to remember that *someone* is sending their kids to these crappy schools. There are students whose parent's can't afford to move to a wealthy section of town or send their kids to private school or even get a tutor. That certainly isn't an excuse for turning to criminal behavior, but I don't think it's hard to see how that it contributes to those choices.

I agree that people need to be held accountable for their behavior, but we all have an obligation to look compassionately at the kind of society we are creating for people to live in. We can spend all of our public money housing people who commit crimes to protect ourselves from them, or we could spend it to help alleviate the social conditions that contribute to this behavior in the first place. I think the latter would make life more pleasant for everyone in the long run.

Of course that isn't going to eliminate all asocial or antisocial behavior because human nature will still be what it is, but it would certainly cut down on the amount that we're having to deal with.

[nmnita]

what are you suggesting? We give them money, provide homes in middle class neighborhoods, up the food stamp program, etc? I don't understand what you would have the government do to assist?

There will always be class differences in society and this is good, not bad. Of course kids raised in the ghetto or inter cities have at least one strike against them. This is a sad situation and yet, it has always been this way.

As for training, prisoners can be trained and educated. I had a friend whos son was incarcarated (meth selling and using) he took advantage of those 3 years and is now a productive citizen, living in So CAlifornia, married and has a family. I doubt he will ever return to the life he led from about 16 to about 30.

Nita

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by phloxy

I agree that when people need to be protected from people who continue to commit crime after crime after crime, especially if these crimes are escalating in violence. But the idea that everyone will just find some lawful line of work assumes a lot about the kinds of opportunities available to everyone.

Not having the ability to find lawful work is no excuse for continuing a life of crime.

Originally Posted by phloxy

Then pile on addiction, domestic violence, mental illness, and other problems, and it becomes even more difficult for some people to get where privileged people think they should be. We don't exactly send people out of prison with new tools for dealing with life either, and a lot of the time they're returning to the same family dynamics and circumstances that contributed to their committing crimes in the first place.

I'll agree that more diversion programs would be a good thing. One thing though, at least some prisons offer vocational training, equipping inmates with skills that can be used to find lawful employment upon release.

I just hope they don't teach locksmithing.

[mother of a 3-striker...]

Phloxy:

Thank you for your sociological and psychological perspectives. Its your attitude and unbiased information that will help facilitate needed changes in our society.

[pudgypat]

Originally Posted by happ

3 strikes was a reactionary attempt to curtail crime. Putting people away in a violent\ boredom prison environment is pointless if they return to a state in depression. Parolees get $200 & a bus ticket home. Crime is nothing more than dollars & common sense. When people are well-cared for [universal health insurance\ affordable housing\ employment protection-unions\ extensive school programs-youth sports-tutoring-counseling] the crime will be comparable to Europe.

Simple solution!

How is Europe's crime problem solved? Even the Bobbies, I've heard, carry guns now. They found the liberals don't have all the answers. As to releasing the prisoner in a "state in depression," I understand Guantanamo will soon be available. Send 'em there! Lots of facilities, water sports, not overcrowded (unless my suggestion is taken). The Obamanation soon will have those, pacify-the-poor Band-Aids once Barack-baby gets past this latest crisis of spending and finally fills his Cabinet.

[phloxy]

Originally Posted by nmnita

what are you suggesting? We give them money, provide homes in middle class neighborhoods, up the food stamp program, etc? I don't understand what you would have the government do to assist?

I'd start with the public school system, which can use improving on just about every front. And there should be money available to students for postsecondary education and trade schools.

Then I'd make sure that adequate funds were provided to domestic violence intervention, mental health, and addiction recovery programs so that all could be served in every community. Right now deep cuts are being made to a lot of social programs and nonprofit budgets that assist underprivileged people. That's the first thing that goes when governments trim their budgets, and citizens are often glad because they don't think that "those people" deserve any help.

The criminal justice system needs a complete overhaul, and the racist aspects simply have to be addressed. And when people end up in jail, they should be able to gain skills and knowledge that make them employable once they leave. Sure, some people aren't going to take advantage of these programs, but I suspect they'd make a difference for quite a few. Then maybe we could weed out the people who truly have no conscience from those who just need a little help learning pro-social behavior.

Sometimes you don't have to give people very much before they get the personal momentum to do things on their own. But it takes compassion and a willingness to see our own biases and greed. I'd be relieved to see my tax money go toward making society better for all, even if that meant that some people seemed to be getting something for free. Big deal. I would certainly find that preferable to where it's going now, which is primarily the pockets of the uber-rich and private entities at the Federal Reserve.

What if The People someday got a "bailout"? Then we'd be getting somewhere.

[BennyPhoenix]

I'm tired of this poor people become criminals crapola.
Most poor people are not criminals, and plenty of wealthy people are criminals. From all the rich and poor people I've met and have known I've found that the poor tend to be more genuine and friendlier, Just my experience.
Money has nothing to do with criminality.

[spiderbear]

I wish they had that system here in Charlotte. Sounds perfectly sane and reasonable to me.