Proposition 13 debate (Hayward: how much, homes, schools)

[FlyDrive100b]

What happens is that a big corporation may have dummy corporations or

partnerships or a trust, and so the corporation that owns property in

California still retains the same name and ownership , so commerical owners benefit a bit more than residential owners because they have that power.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by tech2enable

What happens is that a big corporation may have dummy corporations or

partnerships or a trust, and so the corporation that owns property in

California still retains the same name and ownership , so commerical owners benefit a bit more than residential owners because they have that power.

Very true and it makes it easier to fly under the radar unless Tax Collectors are very aggressive... The SF Tax Collector made a pledge to collect taxes due and conducts extensive audits of Public Corporations to that end...

Public Corps must disclose ownership... so the information is out there...


Maybe, I'm looking at things all wrong... maybe a non-profit tax-exempt organization is the way to go?

I work in Medical and we have to compete with Not for Profit Hospitals that have tremendous tax benefits... One of the California Giant Not for Profits is closing the only local Emergency Room in a nearby city... not because they are loosing money... they are closing because they aren't making money

[OC Investor2]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

Unless you work for one of the few SSI exempt jobs... mostly goverment... I don't see how you can avoid being in the system...

As a side note... my Step Grandfather continued working till his death at 84 and NEVER received a penny in Social Security... He declined it, even though he was working and payed into it at it's inception back in the 30's. My father deferred Social Security till he was 70 and died after getting 3 checks...

As far as education goes... I attended Catholic Schools at the insistence of my Mother... as did my siblings. My Mother also attended Catholic Schools... so right there... in one family is an example of people paying into the system and not receiving benefit.

Your second point is easy for me to defend... I'm one of those that bought my home a few years ago and pay nearly 8 times the property tax of the 80's something couple I bought my home from.

I knew going in what the taxes would be and I still choose to buy. The couple I bought the home from was a military family and their single child was schooled throughout the world and never attended public school in the district where the home is located.

The real point is I can only control what I spend... I can't control what someone else is willing to spend to live in my neighborhood... for me to be subject to the whims of others spending makes no fiscal sense... Just look at how many people threw caution to the wind and drove up prices and have abandoned properties.

I work with a number that did just this... and most could afford to stay... they made a decision not to continue paying on purchase that was declining in value... Vacant homes and neighborhoods with high turn-over do not benefit the community.

I'm counting on Prop 13 in my old age to afford me the ability to enjoy my home just as the couple that lived in my home for 50 years did.

I think what is missing is people equate abolishing Prop 13 with lowering taxes... I think in lite of how Sacramento works... any thought that taxes would actually be lowered for people that choose to pay high prices is naive and would be short lived.

Prop 13 provides predictability and this is a good thing.

Prop 13 also provides for increases beyond statutory limits. I live in Oakland CA and I can tell you that just about every property tax proposal get approved here... till recently... that is why my effective rate is more than 40% than Prop 13's limit.

Voters here pass property tax initiatives for the Oakland Coliseum, Schools, Fire, Police, After School Programs, Midnight Basket Ball, Extra Police, Weed Abatement, Landscaping, Fire Suppression, Street Lights, Libraries, Seismic Retrofits, etc...

Prop 13 is the ONLY saving grace we have... take Prop 13 away and all bets are off... it truly will be the end of California.

I'm glad you are ok with paying many times the taxes of your neighbor living in the identical house next store, but that does not make it fair.

[OC Investor2]

Originally Posted by randian

Then abandon property tax altogether (that the government is the real owner of real property, and you are just a tenant, is implicit in a property tax), or go with a parcel tax rather than an ad valorem tax. It's not as if the person in the cheap house uses less fire, police, or school services, so why should they pay less? If anything, the higher crime and larger families you see in poorer neighborhoods suggests they use a lot more of those services.

Given the number of people already exempted from paying income taxes, I would'nt want to see the property tax burden shifted to income taxes.

The idea of a parcel tax or a blended parcel/ Ad Valorem tax may have some legs though.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by OC Investor2

I'm glad you are ok with paying many times the taxes of your neighbor living in the identical house next store, but that does not make it fair.

Actually their homes are all larger than mine

I don't really see it as a question of fairness because "fair" often means different things to different people.

I can say that I willing paid the price based on my own number crunching and I think this is the crux of the issue...

Everyone that buys property is treated the same... Property Tax is based on the Value at the time of transfer... very fair in my thinking.

Here's a little more background just for fun...

The home I bought had been listed subsequently by two Brokers... the first one was kicked out for bringing in offers contrary to the Seller's written instructions...

The home was listed only a few days with the new Broker when I saw it... I offered full price but also asked for certain personal property to be included... the Seller had a nice little shop set-up and was moving to a retirement community...

The Seller accepted and about 6 months later I get a visit from the Assessor because the sale appeared under market for the neighborhood... remember oldest and smallest home and no upgrades since construction... the Assessor contacted the Broker and wanted a copy of all inspection reports and sales contract, etc.

A week later the Assessor Supervisor comes out and spends about an hour going through the property and taking pictures and determines I did pay market price... I'm feeling a little annoyed by all the extra rig-a-ma-row and said that I should have a lower value because my purchase price included personal property... I was going to let it go... but since this has come up, I've decided the Assessed Value should be accurate...

Too make this long story short... My Assessed Value was lowered $2000 to account for the Table Saw, Drill Press, Welder and other tools included with the Sale... I figured the value to be 6K... but I let it go with a 2k reduction...

Fast forward 5 years later and my Assessed Value has dropped 82k from my purchase price...

The simplest method to determine value is a arm's length sale... anything else requires subjective analysis and opens the matter to dispute... I would think Prop 13's provision of Market Value at the time of Sale is commendable... if only for it's simplicity based on real hard numbers...

[mading6]

Originally Posted by EscapeCalifornia

Can you imagine the flood of baby boomers putting their houses on the market and leaving the state if it passed? Low property taxes is is a big thing keeping long time homeowners here. Take that away and they'll vote with their feet.

YES I will leave if they hike my property taxes anymore. I already pay approx. $33,000.00/year in property taxes and if they increase it then that will mean me paying almost $70k a year.

[NorCal Dude]

Well with a tax bill like that you probably live in a 2.8+ million dollar home. Sorry if I am not seeming sympathetic, but I am not.

I've heard horror stories of people back east paying 5 k in property taxes for houses worth less than 300k.

[mading6]

No I live in a 900k home the other is a rent controlled apartment building.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by mading6

I already pay approx. $33,000.00/year in property taxes

Originally Posted by mading6

No I live in a 900k home the other is a rent controlled apartment building.

Wouldn't the rent you charge your tenants offset the property taxes you pay so their kids can attend government schools at $8500/kid per year?

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by NorCal Dude

I've heard horror stories of people back east paying 5 k in property taxes for houses worth less than 300k.

Don't have to go back East... some areas in CA are nearly as high...

In my city it's about $4,400