No roof: cause for Old Orchard & Oakbrook success? (Chicago: how much, hotels)

[MillennialUrbanist]

Originally Posted by edsg25

I find Randhurst Village to be a major disappointment. Yes, it does have streets running through it, but the buildings that line them have no defined architectural style. And RV was done on the cheap....they were originally going to have residences above the stores, but that was dropped. Meanwhile, the range of stores is not very exciting and the center is dead most of the time, although Costco does a good business. Carsons (the only store that was always at Randhurst) does have a good store there now.

I can agree that Randhurst isn't the fanciest or the liveliest mall. But the neighborhood isn't helping much. South of it is Mount Prospect, which is half middle class (north of IL-58), half working class (south of IL-58). North of it is Prospect Heights, a lot of which is solidly working class. All in all, there aren't any affluent areas nearby to draw clientele from. Not to mention, there's competition from Woodfield, which isn't that far away and does have affluent areas close by.

[RamenAddict]

Originally Posted by wjj

Agree. We have a second home in SWFL and places like Coconut Point in Estero FL (between Fort Myers and Naples) are in an entirely different league than any mall or lifestyle center around Chicago. Same for Gulf Coast Town Center, (also in Estero) which has a younger vibe and is not as high end given its proximity to FGCU (Dunk City!). But they are so large that they are not walkable beyond their core sections. You have to drive or take a trolley to get around the entire center.

Jacksonville has that too in St. Johns Town Center. It's pretty much decimated all the indoor malls in the area. It has everything from the super high end to the lower end, but you'd be hard pressed to walk from the high end area to the stores like Old Navy.

I think outdoor malls are also a lot easier to update as the times change. I remember visiting Mall of America sometime in 2007 or so and thought it still looked a lot like it probably did right when it opened. With outdoor malls, it is easy to update the plans and exterior features to give it a fresh look. Indoor malls just look dated so easily.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by MillennialUrbanist

I can agree that Randhurst isn't the fanciest or the liveliest mall. But the neighborhood isn't helping much. South of it is Mount Prospect, which is half middle class (north of IL-58), half working class (south of IL-58). North of it is Prospect Heights, a lot of which is solidly working class. All in all, there aren't any affluent areas nearby to draw clientele from. Not to mention, there's competition from Woodfield, which isn't that far away and does have affluent areas close by.

Right you are. You mentioned north and south: how about east? Hop over the fence on the frontage road that borders Randhurst on the east and you're in a neighborhood you do not want to enter.

As for "Not to mention, there's competition from Woodfield", that's the very institution that started to kill Randhurst in the first place. As soon as Woodfield opened, Randhurst was screwed. It could not compete with the massive new mall on at a strategic location where the major highways of the northwest suburbs met.

[4122]

Originally Posted by wjj

Another interesting observation is that the indoor Hawthorne Mall in Vernon Hills is often a ghost town - nowhere near its former self - while the outdoor Deer Park Mall (in Deer Park) is booming. I know personally, there really is nothing we see as attractive at Hawthorn but we find ourselves at Deer Park (and the surrounding strip malls and restaurants) every week.

I disagree. I drive by and go to Hawthorn Mall frequently and It's pretty much always packed, especially on Friday nights and Saturdays. With the new movie theater there it has attracted more shoppers. Deer Park Mall is booming though. It's in a convenient location and is successful because of the demographics of the area. Same goes for old orchard and Oakbrook center. Randhurst is now outside, But is pretty much a ghost town with lots of vacant spaces in the mall.

[LittleMartha]

Originally Posted by edsg25

I find Randhurst Village to be a major disappointment. Yes, it does have streets running through it, but the buildings that line them have no defined architectural style. And RV was done on the cheap....they were originally going to have residences above the stores, but that was dropped. Meanwhile, the range of stores is not very exciting and the center is dead most of the time, although Costco does a good business. Carsons (the only store that was always at Randhurst) does have a good store there now.

I wouldn't classify Randhurst as a "lifestyle center" because it really doesn't have that range of upscale merchants that one finds at such a venue.

I think The Glen identifies as a lifestyle center.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by LittleMartha

I think The Glen identifies as a lifestyle center.

I'd agree, but I find that it is by far strongest on restaurants as opposed to the right mix of stores. There has been talk about its anchor, Von Maur, shutting down.

Biggest downside, that I can see, for The Glen is location: smack of the middle of The Glen development on Patriot, a street that gets little but local traffic. Nobody going by on the busy streets near-by....Lake, Willow, Waukegan....pass by The Glen.

Visually I'll give it credit as perhaps the area's best designed lifestyle center. It benefits from housing above stores as well as maintaining the historical terminal of the old GNAS.

[goillini8]

I arrived in Evanston to attend Northwestern in 1991, knowing little about the Chicago area or the North Shore. My family stayed in Skokie near Old Orchard, and at that time it was being rehabbed - the beginning stages of the premier mall it would become and largely remain. It was sort of ahead of its time, as the switch to "outdoor" malls and "lifestyle centers" would really catch on nationwide in the next few decades, even in places that have a cold winter season.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by goillini8

I arrived in Evanston to attend Northwestern in 1991, knowing little about the Chicago area or the North Shore. My family stayed in Skokie near Old Orchard, and at that time it was being rehabbed - the beginning stages of the premier mall it would become and largely remain. It was sort of ahead of its time, as the switch to "outdoor" malls and "lifestyle centers" would really catch on nationwide in the next few decades, even in places that have a cold winter season.

I'll take this one one step further: when Old Orchard expanded in its northeast corner by tearing down Saks and building a series of section of stores like C&B, it was basically trying to create a life style setting.

[chet everett]

"Lifestyle centers" as they've been implemented are mostly NOT effective in reverse in the trends that show continued DECLINE in retail sales.

To be clear it would be smart to have one's terms correct -- What exactly is a "lifestyle centre"? And is it just a dressed-up shopping mall? | CityMetric The keu differences include the lack of traditional ANCHOR department stores, substituting a mix of "destination" type speciality retailers along with dining / entertainment. By that definition it is pretty clear that places like Old Orchard and Oakbrook Center are still very much in the category of TRADITIONAL malls as they have massive reliance on anchor stores. The relative degree to which there are dining options inside the mall is mostly a function of filling the available space -- the cluster of Lettuce Entertain You spots in Oakbrook Center largely takes up space that was otherwise pretty undesirable for retailers as much of it was isolated from the walkable core of the mall's courtyard BUT does offer good exposure and access to valet parking.

I'd further suggest that unlike "suburban boom areas" in places like Texas or the Carolinas that have seen adoption of "lifestyle centers" that do include residential components and tend to piggyback off of expanding office development the degree that such things in the greater Chicago region tend to be "infill" mean that the offer a very watered down experience of the sorts of vibrancy possible in either actual settings inside Chicago or even a more organic sort of development such as one might find at the mix of restaurants and such in the core of downtown Naperville or other nice towns along the various commuter train lines...

There are all kinds of fundamental shifts happening in how folks from just about every economic strata are adapting to what I would suggest is the "new normal" of retail -- upscale consumers still very much prefer various "in-person" experiences that include Costco and the higher end physical retailing that happens in nice malls as well as top tier shopping districts such as North Michigan Ave. The challenge of firms to have actual sales in such places, as opposed to mere "showrooms" has been addressed in various ways with some firms trying to build brand loyalty through more personalized service.

At the mid-range the challenges are often addressed differently in various sub-segments / specialized categories -- consolidation (and fiscal discipline) are huge issues for different firms. The collapse of so many once high flying retailers may seen unique but really the long history of midrange firms has been the same -- lots of expansions periods followed pretty long runs and a quick collapse / retrenchment has happened over and over in the post war era. Think of places like Venture, Zayre. Korvettes as well as all kinds of long forgotten specialty stores especially those that were in niches like computeres or A/V or appliances.

The lower end is another weird mix, with some firms being amazingly resilient in challenging conditions -- think of Aldi with their often off-brand products, or WalMart that despite having nasty reputation still seems to be quite profitable. The really awful niches, like the various "Dollar" stores still seem to be expanding and doing so even in areas where other retailers don't bother, though the debt load that the segment leader has from buying up competitors makes one wonder what happens as interest rates climb. Going even "lower" into the tiers of deeply discounted retail one scratches their head over how the expansion of "not for profit" resale outlets get by with a merchandise that is largely donated and just how long such a race "beyond the bottom" will start CHARGING people to drop off their junk...

[KerrTown]

After visiting those two malls after Thanksgiving, I can see (and feel) why Woodfield is very popular. It's the closest major indoor mall to Chicago proper. The winter chill is the worst in the evenings during the early winter sunset, especially when Christmas shopping after work.

I'm surprised that Woodfield is very popular despite Chicago having two humongous shopping areas, a rarity in American Cities, in the Magnificent Mile and historic State Street. The mall is almost the same size as the Galleria mall here in Houston and draws in the same numbers of crowds and revenue, despite the lack of haute-couture luxury boutiques and department stores that can be found in the shopping streets in Chicago proper.

Perhaps it's the 10% tourist sales tax zone drives Chicagoland shoppers away from Downtown and to the suburbs?