Manhattan: 98% White? (Chicago, Skokie, Niles: homes, neighborhoods, upkeep)

[dcisive]

Most definitely a case of the "Haves and have not's to be sure. As you well know, in the 40's and 50's the South Shore was as high end as it got. Very elite and a nice place to live. A lot of famous or well known folks came out of there. These days it's kind of spotty as to what is safe and not. Sadly the further you go into the Manor the worse it is. As well as West of Stoney Island. I almost can't believe there was a time (I can still remember in my old mind) when that area too was rather decent. Right on up to Hyde Park. Got accosted on a CTA bus by two drunk blacks headed home to the Manor several months before we moved. That left a very bad taste in my mouth about the area, so I never missed it like some did.

[Kmanshouse]

There are huge areas of the south side that just gets ignored by most people. And the money doesn't follow either. So improvements don't get made. It's a cycle for sure.

I had a relative that died a few years ago - white lady made it to 81-82 years old, lived in Pullman Square until she died. She was a tough old bird that nobody messed with. A dying breed. She never felt the need to move, very rare.

[fusillirob1983]

Originally Posted by Hiruko

The housing stock in Jeffery Manor is and was decidedly middle and working-class. Maybe a false memory?

I'm not so sure about that. People weren't so separated by income and profession in south side neighborhoods decades ago. My parents spent part of their childhood in Englewood followed by mildly nicer but still considered middle class south side neighborhoods the second half of their childhoods and still lived among doctors, dentists and others in more white collar professions while still living among a lot of middle class families.

[dcisive]

Originally Posted by fusillirob1983

I'm not so sure about that. People weren't so separated by income and profession in south side neighborhoods decades ago. My parents spent part of their childhood in Englewood followed by mildly nicer but still considered middle class south side neighborhoods the second half of their childhoods and still lived among doctors, dentists and others in more white collar professions while still living among a lot of middle class families.

I completely agree as I explained. I've looked at the history of the Merrionette Manor/Jeffrey Manor history. It was designed by a guy with the last name of Merrionette as a more suburban type layout with curved streets (not vertical/horizontal layouts) and a complete shopping center area (95th street) to take care of the areas needs from grocery stores, restaurants, drug store, bowling alley, bakery, five and dime, shoe store and hardware. They were predominantly duplex homes that would be affordable, meant to accommodate those servicemen returning from WWII who would have the GI Bill to assist in their getting their first homes. Also starting families which was responsible for the term "baby boomers" as there were many children born and around at that time. Our doctor used to come to the house for visits (and the scary shot experiences I remember we had to have to keep us healthy).

The neighborhood had both churches and a synagogue along with a kindergarden through 8th grade school in the middle. Parks were plentifully designed in several areas of the Manor which during winters had a flooded area to ice skate. Ball fields and swings and such. I tell you the entire neighborhood was like a "Leave It To Beaver" place to grow up. Until 1966 when that SOB Richard Speck killed those poor nurses on 100th street's apartments across from our school, we had virtually NO crime I'd ever encountered nor heard of in our immediate neighborhood. No theft nor burglary, shooting or harm that came to anyone. Funny, I recall only ONE family that broke up due to a divorce. Otherwise, all families I even knew of were solid and stable.

Streets were pretty tight as almost all people knew those that lived, if not on their street in the neighborhood basically. The PTA was a big thing back then and my mom had friends throughout the neighborhood. A different time and place for sure. But I feel privileged to have grown up in THAT environment. Back then all the kids were in pretty good shape. We rode our bicycles and played ball till it got dark, not sitting in a house watching TV, playing video games or on computers sitting around. As I've said it changed beginning after the Speck murders and began a downward trend whose fire was fueled more so with the "White Flight" that accelerated right after our leaving in 1967. Hope you don't feel I rambled too much, just got me in reminisce mode.

[G in MP]

Originally Posted by dcisive

I completely agree as I explained. I've looked at the history of the Merrionette Manor/Jeffrey Manor history. It was designed by a guy with the last name of Merrionette as a more suburban type layout with curved streets (not vertical/horizontal layouts) and a complete shopping center area (95th street) to take care of the areas needs from grocery stores, restaurants, drug store, bowling alley, bakery, five and dime, shoe store and hardware. They were predominantly duplex homes that would be affordable, meant to accommodate those servicemen returning from WWII who would have the GI Bill to assist in their getting their first homes. Also starting families which was responsible for the term "baby boomers" as there were many children born and around at that time. Our doctor used to come to the house for visits (and the scary shot experiences I remember we had to have to keep us healthy).

The neighborhood had both churches and a synagogue along with a kindergarden through 8th grade school in the middle. Parks were plentifully designed in several areas of the Manor which during winters had a flooded area to ice skate. Ball fields and swings and such. I tell you the entire neighborhood was like a "Leave It To Beaver" place to grow up. Until 1966 when that SOB Richard Speck killed those poor nurses on 100th street's apartments across from our school, we had virtually NO crime I'd ever encountered nor heard of in our immediate neighborhood. No theft nor burglary, shooting or harm that came to anyone. Funny, I recall only ONE family that broke up due to a divorce. Otherwise, all families I even knew of were solid and stable.

Streets were pretty tight as almost all people knew those that lived, if not on their street in the neighborhood basically. The PTA was a big thing back then and my mom had friends throughout the neighborhood. A different time and place for sure. But I feel privileged to have grown up in THAT environment. Back then all the kids were in pretty good shape. We rode our bicycles and played ball till it got dark, not sitting in a house watching TV, playing video games or on computers sitting around. As I've said it changed beginning after the Speck murders and began a downward trend whose fire was fueled more so with the "White Flight" that accelerated right after our leaving in 1967. Hope you don't feel I rambled too much, just got me in reminisce mode.

That's interesting to read, thank you. I will say though (although it's been a few years since I've driven through there), Jeffrey Manor at least looks well kept up. Tidy lawns, tidy homes and stuff. It's definitely no Englewood.

[dcisive]

Originally Posted by G in MP

That's interesting to read, thank you. I will say though (although it's been a few years since I've driven through there), Jeffrey Manor at least looks well kept up. Tidy lawns, tidy homes and stuff. It's definitely no Englewood.

I'll grant you that, it's nowhere near a rundown Englewood. However, there are plenty of boarded up homes, no doubt from the Section 8's who came there at some point. The overwhelming majority of those living in the Manor at this time are indeed upstanding citizens who care about their homes but there is unfortunately no shortage of exceptions who are homes with gangbangers that keep the neighborhood on edge. There are regular shootings (mostly in the parks there) where the gangbangers feud. Innocent children killed in the crossfires. I won't bother to post the plethora of Youtube links on the shooting events there on a regular basis easily seen here. Also, gatherings of the gangs near the former Luella school (broke my heart to see this). The 95th street shopping area was decimated sadly. But like you said, as bad as it has gotten and IS, it's nowhere near the war zone layout of an Englewood and such.

[G in MP]

I hear ya, dcisive. Black neighborhoods, the middle class ones, they do have a higher tolerance for criminality and generally poor upkeep, but just so long as it's not on their own block. That's what I've noted from observation, it's mainly a block by block thing. The nice blocks are kept looking nice by the residents of said blocks. So I'll say the more nice blocks the better, and JM does seem to have a bunch of nice blocks.

Austin too, home of the next mayor. Yeh lots of hood there, but they got nice blocks too.

Englewood though, well they got some nice empty lots lol!

[Hiruko]

Originally Posted by G in MP

I hear ya, dcisive. Black neighborhoods, the middle class ones, they do have a higher tolerance for criminality and generally poor upkeep, but just so long as it's not on their own block. That's what I've noted from observation, it's mainly a block by block thing. The nice blocks are kept looking nice by the residents of said blocks. So I'll say the more nice blocks the better, and JM does seem to have a bunch of nice blocks.

Austin too, home of the next mayor. Yeh lots of hood there, but they got nice blocks too.

Englewood though, well they got some nice empty lots lol!

Urban middle-class predominately African American neighborhoods are going to have a lower rate of homeownership compared to middle-class white neighborhoods, so who is to say that it isn't absentee white landlords or lienholders allowing the properties to deteriorate? Only 45% of dwellings are owner-occupied in the City of Chicago. The rest are tenant-occupied. I imagine much of the south side ranks below that city-wide stat. There are a lot of factors here that are not easily explained. Looking for cultural explanations for things like this is fraught territory. While I don't think you mean it this way, your comments above come across to me as pretty racist.

[Kmanshouse]

Everyone talks about Englewood....but West Garfield Park is the worst/most dangerous neighborhood in the city. Not even on the south side.

[G in MP]

Originally Posted by Hiruko

Urban middle-class predominately African American neighborhoods are going to have a lower rate of homeownership compared to middle-class white neighborhoods, so who is to say that it isn't absentee white landlords or lienholders allowing the properties to deteriorate? Only 45% of dwellings are owner-occupied in the City of Chicago. The rest are tenant-occupied. I imagine much of the south side ranks below that city-wide stat. There are a lot of factors here that are not easily explained. Looking for cultural explanations for things like this is fraught territory. While I don't think you mean it this way, your comments above come across to me as pretty racist.

Which part did you read as racist, the block by block thing? Well see, that's just reality, and I know what I'm talking about here. It's been a few yrs now since then, but I worked years as an emt-p on private ambulances, mainly the city, especially the south and west sides. I've been everywhere, in every project, every hood, and every nice area...like years of that. And in terms of black neighborhoods, that's been my observation, nice blocks and not so nice blocks.

As far as tenant-occupied domicile percentage, I'd like to see that broken down between detached single-family vs apartment/condo. I would guess that percentage heavily favors apartments, whereas detached single family much more likely to be owner-occupied.