Chgo vs. SF: HSR (Chicago, Burnham: for sale, 2015, buying)

[edsg25]

San Francisco is currently well on the way to building what may arguably be the most magnificent public space in the United States with its Transbay Transit Center (Transbay Center)

Designed to tie the city's various transit lines together (although strangely BART won't have a direct connection), the highlight of the system and the one part that is truly essential is the SF terminus of California's high speed rail system.

But one would have to note that the SF station is not central to the system and offers no more centrality than the other key stations in LA, SD, and Sacto.

In other words, San Francisco's part in high speed rail is rather typical of most cities that will be on these systems that are designed for various parts of the United States.

That would hardly be the case for Chicago. Chicago, far more than any city, is the central focus for its HSR, the most "all roads lead to Rome" city in the nation in this regard (just like Chicago was in terms of the original rail system that blanketed the nation).

Yet San Francisco is well on the way (construction began in 2010) for its HSR center while Chicago, that most important point, based on design, in the nation's HSR future, has gone nowhere with its West Loop Transportation Center which is so little prioritized that it doesn't even have a major league, highly detailed and flashy website that shows what such a terminal could look like.

Why?

Why is Chicago lacking in the one area that it may arguably have an edge over all cities in the United States: the centrality of transportation, the rail hub. We rue the fact that Chicago is not #1 in finance (NY), entertainment (LA), government (DC), yet in this one area where we lead, we don't seem to be heading for the future……something that can't be said for San Francisco, a city that was once famous for its paralysis of action, its inability to get anything done in a place where competing interests often led to gridlock….a city that seems to have made a 180 degree swing to what may well be the exciting city in the US when it comes to how it is redeveloping itself.

Here in the midwest, we are aware that our rust belt heritage has left us behind much of the nation as so many of our cities decay (Chicago, IMHO, is hardly one of them, a city very much in tune with the other dynamic metropolises in the US, all the others being coastal or near coastal). Yet nothing could serve this region more than a high quality, high speed rail system, largely tied to Chicago and impacting Milw, M/SP, StL, KC, Det, Clev, Cin, and Ipls.

We thought of the Olympics as the spark we needed, counting on infrastructure from it being the basis for redevelopment. Yet this rail project would offer much more bang for the buck and spill off from it would lead to massive redevelopment. Indeed, it would create a hot bed of construction in the West Loop and would offer a transportation facility to match O'Hare in a new age when rail may challenge air the way the later did the former around the middle of the 20th century.

I'd like to think Daniel Burnham gave us the west loop transit center in the form of "make no little plans". we seem to get that in the form of an ever expanding McCormick Place, a masterpiece Millennium Park, etc. Isn't it time we make high speed rail a part of the mix, encouraging its development with the US government and in building our own grandest of central stations?

[Ace Rothstein]

I would imagine it has a lot to do with funding and high-speed rail not being a reality in the Midwest at this point. Our neighbors don't seem too interested in upgrading their rail lines and if that doesn't happen, high-speed rail will never get off the ground in our region.

[emathias]

Originally Posted by Ace Rothstein

I would imagine it has a lot to do with funding and high-speed rail not being a reality in the Midwest at this point. Our neighbors don't seem too interested in upgrading their rail lines and if that doesn't happen, high-speed rail will never get off the ground in our region.

Actually, the only neighbor not interested is Wisconsin.

[Ace Rothstein]

Originally Posted by emathias

Actually, the only neighbor not interested is Wisconsin.

I thought Ohio and Indiana as well. I know Ohio sent funding back to the feds.

[sydlee]

Originally Posted by edsg25

San Francisco is currently well on the way to building what may arguably be the most magnificent public space in the United States with its Transbay Transit Center (Transbay Center)

Designed to tie the city's various transit lines together (although strangely BART won't have a direct connection), the highlight of the system and the one part that is truly essential is the SF terminus of California's high speed rail system.

But one would have to note that the SF station is not central to the system and offers no more centrality than the other key stations in LA, SD, and Sacto.

In other words, San Francisco's part in high speed rail is rather typical of most cities that will be on these systems that are designed for various parts of the United States.

That would hardly be the case for Chicago. Chicago, far more than any city, is the central focus for its HSR, the most "all roads lead to Rome" city in the nation in this regard (just like Chicago was in terms of the original rail system that blanketed the nation).

Yet San Francisco is well on the way (construction began in 2010) for its HSR center while Chicago, that most important point, based on design, in the nation's HSR future, has gone nowhere with its West Loop Transportation Center which is so little prioritized that it doesn't even have a major league, highly detailed and flashy website that shows what such a terminal could look like.

The last I heard, CA High Speed Rail progress has slowed. FWIW, the fact that Bay Area Rapid Transit does not have a direct connection tells you all you need to know about the SNAFU status of this project.

[chet everett]

The exhortation was not just to dream but, as the full quote implicitly states, to have a coherent plan that was so comprehensive as to ensure that it would in fact be adopted and completed -- Make No Little Plans The fact is that HSR itself is one big stupid mess as proposed in the US and it is such a silly disorganized effort that firms that would be hurt if it were to be successful (like those in business of building airplanes or running airlines, both of which are HQ'd in Chicago...) don't really even need to flex their considerable influence to throw things off.

The LA-SF thing gets more silly by the day. Now the plan is unlikely to even cut 20% of the travel time compared to a car. Weirdly more folks in SF probably have colleagues more likely to work in Bangalore or Shenzhen than LA Foxconn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Odds are that most business people that would routine need to confer with coworkers have mastered GoToMeeting for a fraction of the price of travel -- California's high-speed train wreck potentially not a metaphor. Update: about those profitable EU rails

Fundamentally HSR, even the "real" kind that exists in Japan or France (as opposed to fake kind that more like a guy with a Corvette and radar detector that is proposed here ...) is not competitive with air travel -- Japan's Bullet Trains Face Competition from Low Fare Airlines It is not just the trains themselves that are costly but all the potential things for the trains to run into an urban area -- Passenger/High-Speed Rail The thing that really keeps these projects moving at all is nothing more than "vote buying" -- How bullet-train fiasco maintains support, momentum Unfortunately for the folks that already understand the degree to which Illinois politicians have lied and cheated when comes to promises about pensions the traditional supporters of massively subsidized public works projects know first hand that the "promises" are no longer to be believed Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis: Business Owners Blast IL Tax Hikes;Quinn's Blatant Lies;Neighboring States Gleeful,Arrogance,Greed,Corruption

The OP seems to suggest that the ever expanding McCormick Place is a good thing; saner folks would beg to differ --
Agency that runs McCormick Place, Navy Pier in 'deep financial hole' - Chicago Tribune
McPier's Legal Woes Chicago Business Today - Video
McPier meltdown|Crain's Chicago Business
The Stained Glass Is Nice, Though | Bleader | Chicago Reader

[Chicago60614]

Originally Posted by Ace Rothstein

I thought Ohio and Indiana as well. I know Ohio sent funding back to the feds.

And Iowa, the gov there isn't interested anymore.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by sydlee

The last I heard, CA High Speed Rail progress has slowed. FWIW, the fact that Bay Area Rapid Transit does not have a direct connection tells you all you need to know about the SNAFU status of this project.

frankly even more important than progress being slowed, the fact is that CA high speed rail had nothing definitely in place when SF decided to go ahead with the terminal. I can only imagine that this was done because, no matter what progress there was, this was a system that was bound to be built; its economic importance was simply too great for the state and it needed to be done. for all of grover Norquist and his anti-taxation stance, the Golden State remains a pretty progressive place and is one where things can get done even if they can't in much of the country (California bucks where the US is politically in many ways).

I would agree with the other poster who questioned BART's lack of inclusion (which seems rather dumb to me); on the other hand, there is a talk of another transbay tube from SF to East Bay that might or might not include BART and, if BART is included, it may be a shared right of way). All speculative talk sees this one making the crossing due south of the Bay Bridge which would put a BART line in target to reach Transbay Center.

I think the dynamics of Soma in SF are different from Chicago's West Loop. Soma has the advantage of a hot waterfront on the Bay south of Market Street. And while the West Loop certainly has something pretty nice in the form of the South Branch, I don't think the area has the panache of Soma. Therefore, the EBC offers more chance of spin over, great redevelopment than Chicago's west loop transportation center. Indeed, SF is far more interested in maximizing Soma as the new business center of downtown than Chicago is in doing the same for the West Loop.

But on the basics here, I'll stick to the notion that in this era when both cars and planes are becoming more and more suspect, both economically and environmentally, rail stands out as a eco-friendlier alternative. And Chicago's ability to become the unquestionable center of midwestern rail and the ability to that system to eventually link up with the northeast corridor's version of the same is huge economically.

You have to plan for way ahead and now is the time to do it. A future Chicago is going t need this project. And as much as I don't think we've made much progress, other than San Francisco, I don't see any city but Chicago that is even considering something this massive and comprehensive.

[chet everett]

Part of me does agree that there is value to looking out to future transportation options but the fact that in the US it is going to be a lot easier to have some kind of infrastructure to support personal vehicles that run either directly or through electro-conversion on some kind of liquid / gaseous "fuel". The plentiful supply of natural gas as well as the advanced infrastructure that already efficiently delivers piped gas around the country can be built out to include a whole range of options that might include fuel cells -- ClearEdge Power or advance hydrogen reforming facilities -- FCT Hydrogen Production: Natural Gas Reforming

Even firms as run of the mill as Honda and Toyota have actual drivable vehicles scheduled for sale to use hyrdogen which build off the CNG vehicles they currently are actively selling -- Toyota Is Totally Going To Sell A Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car In 2015

The bottom line is that firms that grow out of the work of researchers at Argonne National Labs are almost certainly going to have a bigger impact on the future of transportation than the dreams of those infatuated with the false promise of HSR -- Techno-Economic Analysis | Argonne National Laboratory

[emathias]

Originally Posted by Ace Rothstein

I thought Ohio and Indiana as well. I know Ohio sent funding back to the feds.

I don't consider Ohio a neighbor.