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jobs! YES . .. but that's not all. The criminal element has to be drastically reduced. Young people (starting with the very young and on up into their early 20's) need good, sucessfull, happy role models, community centers designed to provide both recreation and informal education, teachers like Jaime Escalante in local schools, etc. Sucess in society needs to be seen as not only possible, but probable, for those who are willing to pursue it. These things could be accomplished, but lots of $$$ need to go into it. . . for law enforcement & protection of the vulnerable population, for education, for infrastructure, transportation, community assests such as real Grocery Stores, hard goods stores, etc. In our society people are "cheap", goods and services are "expensive", we spend millions on entertainment and sports heros, practically nothing on those willing and able to make a real difference in difficult places and situations . . . we need a change in our opinions of what is important, we need to care as much for out neighbors in "bad" neighborhoods as for the ones that live on Lake Shore Drive.
Community role models are essential, but it all starts at home. It doesn't take a village to raise a child; it takes a family and if the family unit is broken due to cultural issues, therein lies the first part of the problem. Further, you cannot "care" for someone who doesn't care about themselves, without that relationship devolving into a one-sided nightmare, with one party doing all the giving and the other doing all the taking (as the interplay between blacks and whites presently exists)
There will always be the outliers who are able to surmount having come from a horrible home life and make themselves into something better, but for most people, how they're raised plays an enormous- even primary- role in who they eventually become as adults. It certainly plays a role in their decision-making process, which in turn impacts the trajectory of their lives...
As such, when you're dealing with a culture that hasn't even the most basic grasp on what it takes to raise children fit to live in a civil world, then you must address those issues that exist within that culture. Everything else is ancillary to that. There's no amount of community centers, midnight basketball programs, free lunches or other high-minded "programs" that will even begin to address what needs to be fixed when the problem at hand lies within the culture itself. Well intentioned though they may be, your "social serving" type people are usually just ****ing terrible at planning efficacious strategies, so when the task at hand is helping to 'fix' certain problems within the black community, the result is inevitably a total failure, cushioned by the fact that the effort was made by genuinely good-hearted people and all intentions were good during the process.
Unfortunately, this issue of "fixing the inner-cities" (which itself is really just code for "dealing with the problem of having a substantial, culturally-failed black underclass on your hands") needs to be approached with a colder heart. It needs "field general" types managing it's course it rather than "human services" people. Those people are fine for providing a shoulder to to cry on or a sympathetic ear, but they're just positively awful at making objective decisions and doing what needs to be done to fix things...
The other issue is; can American 'black culture' even be fixed to begin with? Or are they completely destroyed as a people (resulting from a combo of their own unfortunate history and their more recent, awful cultural decisions...) By trying to have Mighty Whitey sail in and save the day on their behalf, we're basically acting as an idealistic enabler trying to 'serve' a gutter-dwelling addict who's unwilling to help himself. The catch is, are they (blacks as a culture) irreparably broken- completely lacking the capacity to help themselves, but unable to 'accept what needs to be done' in order for white people to come in and do the job for them?
It's an insanely complex issue that's well outside the confines of what can be addressed on an internet BBS. At the end of the day, some sort of 'awakening' must occur amongst American blacks if we're even to approach taking step one in the process. I think the likelihood of that happening in my lifetime isn't impossible, but it's very, very small.
Last edited by PokerPlayer1; 01-20-2010 at 01:28 PM..
Role models are essential, but it starts at home. It doesn't take a village to raise a child; it takes a family. Further, you cannot "care" for someone who doesn't care about themselves without that relationship being a one-sided one with one party doing all the giving and the other doing all the taking (as it presently is now)
There will always be the outliers who are able to surmount having come from a horrible home life and make themselves into something better, but for most people, how they're raised plays an enormous- even primary- role in who they eventually become as adults. It certainly plays a role in their decision-making process, which in turn impacts the trajectory of their lives...
As such, when you're dealing with a culture that hasn't even the most basic grasp on what it takes to raise children fit to live in a civil world, then you must address those issues that exist within that culture. Everything else is ancillary to that. There's no amount of community centers, midnight basketball programs, free lunches or other high-minded "programs" that will even begin to address what needs to be fixed when the problem at hand is cultural. Well intentioned though they may be, your "social serving" type people are usually just ****ing terrible at planning efficacious strategies, so when the task at hand is helping to 'fix' the problems with the black community, the result is usually failure, cushioned by the fact that an effort was made by genuinely good-hearted people and all intentions were good during the process.
Unfortunately, this issue of "fixing the inner-cities" (which itself is really just code for "dealing with the problem of having a substantial, culturally-failed black underclass on your hands") needs to be approached with a colder heart. It needs "field general" types managing it's course it rather than "human services" people. Those people are fine for providing a shoulder to to cry on or a sympathetic ear, but they're just positively awful at making objective decisions and doing what needs to be done to fix things...
The other issue is; can American 'black culture' even be fixed to begin with? Or are they completely destroyed as a people (probably resulting from a combo of their own history and their own awful decisions...) By trying to have Mighty Whitey sail in and save the day, we're basically acting as an enabler who's trying to 'serve' a failed addict who's unwilling to help himself. The catch is, are they irreparably broken, lacking the capacity to help themselves, but unable to 'accept what needs to be done' in order for white people to come in and do the job for them?
It's an insanely complex issue that's well outside the confines of what can be addressed on an internet BBS. At the end of the day, some sort of 'awakening' must occur amongst American blacks if we're even to approach taking step one in the process. I think the likelihood of that happening in my lifetime is small, but not impossible.
I beg to differ with your opinion, at least for some, if not all young people. I grew up in Englewood/west Englewood, in what could only be described as a "dysfunctional" family. I had few if any good role models until I got into High School, and that turned my life around. . . yes I graduated from University, have been employed for my entire adult life, etc. etc. No out of wedlock children, no tolerance of "abuse" by partners, employers or others. I had big dreams back then, and most if not all have been achieved. Things could have turned out VERY differently.
You're an outlier. Congrats.
Report back to us after you've had your 10 year class reunion and tell us what you saw.
I no longer live near any "reunion" sites, but I do get back to Illinois State University to visit friends and old professors, ocassionally. . . have a real soft spot for that place. . .
What poker does not know is that there are a lot of people who were raised in the ghetto and grew up, went to college are contributing tax payers. The thing is these people do not return back to where they grew up(Would you?) and so the area remains.
Also I hate to say it but not all of the south side is a bad area. Sure there are ghettos but there are working class places too. It is just that these working class folks don't work downtown in some office get paid $100K a year and drink lattes.
Anyway in my experience what makes ghettos is :
a. Sometimes unreasonable fear of the area(I once saw chimack comment about a fear of getting car jacked on Stoney...If I wanted to car jack someone Stoney would not be a good street for it and whenever I go up or down it I don't see crowds of people or people mulling around doing nothing). This causes lack of investment and lack of people moving in and breaking up some of that concentration of poverty. There will always be poor folks, but when they are all located in one area it is bad. When corrected for income children of low income people do much better when they are not raised in such a concentration of poverty.
b. A high proportion of elderly esp.lower income elderly. They have trouble keeping their houses up.
c. large numbers of renters which causes instability. Homeowners are much more invested in an area. Landlords may or may not keep property up and renters can move easily at anytime.
d. Absentee landlords leaving behind buildings and other property to rot rather than do something with it.
e. High proportions of drug and alcohol addiction among residents in the area.
f. Low proportions of high income folk. You may get plenty of factory works, nurses and other nice jobs in a ghetto. What is lacking are the folks making 100K or more. They have much more disposable income and can support niceties like coffee bars and what not.
I think in the past there were run down sections of town, but the rise of suburbia made them much worse as the folks with more income moved away from the folks with less. When I see pictures of old Chicago, I don't see nice shiny yuppie or over sized suburban lawns I see working class neighborhoods. Gritty yet in better shape than the ghettos that replaced some of them.
Unfortunately, Poker is right. You are an outlier.
Until reinvestment in these communities comes from success stories such as yourself, very little will be done. More people, like yourself who have gone off to a decent college, have a decent job (I assume) and married with kids are not coming back to these areas.
It is like where I am from in southern Indiana, huge brain drain. People like me who go off to university seldom come back home unless I want to farm. People like me go to big cities like Chicago where there is more opportunity. I can't make +$200K/yr unless I am bank president where I come from or own my business.
Southern Indiana has some parts that have far less money than inner-city Chicago, but not the crime (though crystal meth is becoming more so) or the violence (and everyone has guns), so if not a money thing, it must be a cultural thing that is keeping these southside neighborhoods down. It certainly isn't gun control, though the CPS people keep hammering at this instead of addressing the real problem, which is a broken culture.
Poker,
That was one of the best post I have seen in several years on this forum. Very well thought out and not sugar coated.
I bank a number of not-for-profits who spend big bucks with these "after school programs, etc" and while programs like this are nice and make us feel good and help outliers like Cap, they do little to stem to tide of poverty that festers in these areas. Most of the money is public (some private) and I think there are better ways to spend my tax dollars. Still, I am glad for Cap and am grateful that some of these programs produce results, however limited.
The catch is, are they (blacks as a culture) irreparably broken- completely lacking the capacity to help themselves, but unable to 'accept what needs to be done' in order for white people to come in and do the job for them?
I'll ask around in my family and on my block and get back to you.
Maybe a start by white folks would be to lose the paternalism.
Unfortunately, Poker is right. You are an outlier.
Until reinvestment in these communities comes from success stories such as yourself, very little will be done. More people, like yourself who have gone off to a decent college, have a decent job (I assume) and married with kids are not coming back to these areas.
It is like where I am from in southern Indiana, huge brain drain. People like me who go off to university seldom come back home unless I want to farm. People like me go to big cities like Chicago where there is more opportunity. I can't make +$200K/yr unless I am bank president where I come from or own my business.
Southern Indiana has some parts that have far less money than inner-city Chicago, but not the crime (though crystal meth is becoming more so) or the violence (and everyone has guns), so if not a money thing, it must be a cultural thing that is keeping these southside neighborhoods down. It certainly isn't gun control, though the CPS people keep hammering at this instead of addressing the real problem, which is a broken culture.
Poker,
That was one of the best post I have seen in several years on this forum. Very well thought out and not sugar coated.
I bank a number of not-for-profits who spend big bucks with these "after school programs, etc" and while programs like this are nice and make us feel good and help outliers like Cap, they do little to stem to tide of poverty that festers in these areas. Most of the money is public (some private) and I think there are better ways to spend my tax dollars. Still, I am glad for Cap and am grateful that some of these programs produce results, however limited.
In some ways I was very lucky, the two Harper H.S. teachers that were my mentors and friends were indeed extraordinary. I did win a city wide scholarship in the field that I wished to study in college, etc. etc. Nevertheless, my sister did equally well, and my brother, who has little formal education is a renowned genius in his field and has become a very sucessful entrepeneur. Our folks were really quite intelligent, neither one of them had had any decent parenting when they grew up, and that, combined with onerous financial difficulties made life pretty hard, back then, but there were plenty of others, too, in the neighborhood, who were just fine, although most did not get more than a H.S. education. What I remember is good people, struggleing with difficult circumstances, and very few ended up in any major trouble. . . most of the guys did the military thing after H.S. most of the girls got married and had kids, some still live in or near the old neighborhood. . . .
I'll ask around in my family and on my block and get back to you.
Maybe a start by white folks would be to lose the paternalism.
You know we agree on this. Big time.
Problem is, you'll find that most white people who "lose the paternalism" and suggest that black culture sinks or swims on it's own volition are immediately shouted down as being 'racist', largely because we've taken that position for quite some time and black culture is now a drowned corpse. There's almost a logical imperitive for the culture to knows how to succeed to 'jump in and do something' for the one that clearly doesn't know how to succeed (anywhere they've existed, since time immemorial)
If American black culture is able to fix itself from within, you'd imagine that even rudimentary steps would have been taken by now to make it happen- but there haven't been any such steps; meaningful ones, anyway. Black culture has bottomed out so badly, there's no further down it can go... so they demand "services" and "services" and "services" and "services" and "help" and "help" and "help" and "services" and "help" until it's now gotten to the point that we have a productive people "serving" a people who are seemingly lacking any meaningful capacity to "serve" themselves.
Of course, larger black culture wants it both ways. They want the broader "system" to make enormous concessions to make their lives easier (usually rooted in entitlement mentality), but for that same system to also work hard to create the illusion that it isn't making these concessions 'because they're black' so they can preserve that ego.
The other issue is; can American 'black culture' even be fixed to begin with? Or are they completely destroyed as a people (resulting from a combo of their own unfortunate history and their more recent, awful cultural decisions...) By trying to have Mighty Whitey sail in and save the day on their behalf, we're basically acting as an idealistic enabler trying to 'serve' a gutter-dwelling addict who's unwilling to help himself. The catch is, are they (blacks as a culture) irreparably broken- completely lacking the capacity to help themselves, but unable to 'accept what needs to be done' in order for white people to come in and do the job for them?
It's an insanely complex issue that's well outside the confines of what can be addressed on an internet BBS. At the end of the day, some sort of 'awakening' must occur amongst American blacks if we're even to approach taking step one in the process. I think the likelihood of that happening in my lifetime isn't impossible, but it's very, very small.
Can you explain this? I'm interested to know what exactly you mean by this.
(And no, that's not a dig...I really am interested)
I'm assuming you're referring to the whole slavery, "white people owe them an apology" schtick...right?
Quote:
Of course, larger black culture wants it both ways. They want the broader "system" to make enormous concessions to make their lives easier (usually rooted in entitlement mentality), but for that same system to also work hard to create the illusion that it isn't making these concessions 'because they're black' so they can preserve that ego.
Humboldt
Quote:
I am sure you mean well but Bru makes a great point in that you need to live in or near these areas to really understand how hopeless things have become for many of the residents, particularly those who do pick up after themselves.
Sure, I agree that I'm not an authoritative voice on the topic, having never lived in an inner-city, low-income neighborhood. However, I still believe that shipping them off so they become someone else's problem isn't the way to fix it. Color me naive, but I'd like to believe that there is some hope for them...
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Cap and Poker
