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What can we agree on? Let me ask... for clarification.
Does a local body of believers (elders) have the right to decide to pay a pastor or not pay a pastor?
Does accepting a "salary" as a pastor (runs the church not just a preacher) constitute sin?
'Sin' is taught us by The Law.
We have become divorced from The Law <Romans 7:1-4>
Romans 14:10 - 14 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
I have had many occasions to work with men who are paid pastors. Men who entered this profession to be their careers. Men who were capable of going from denomination to denomination to preach whatever doctrine a church wanted to hear, and was willing to pay a salary for.
I trust that you likewise have worked with such men.
Jesus warned us all of these pastors.
Is wealth a sin? No.
Can a wealthy man enter Heaven? Off course, but ....
How is your pastor compensated? for clarification.
It's not just about money... I've already pointed out the Pope lives rather well and receives no salary. Is that OK then? Many religious shysters receive no salary on paper, but are receiving shameful gain.
I'm currently attending a more Restorationist minded congregation. There is structure and leadership, but we take turns as directed by the Holy Spirit. We all teach. We all learn. We believe this is the way God intended Christianity to operate all along. As luck would have it, we do have several of members who have studied deeply -- moreso than most professional clergy members that I've met actually -- but nobody gets paid. It does seem to be one of those items that many Restorationists religions have in common: An unpaid lay clergy. I know for sure that Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter-Day Saints do this on a world-wide scale. I know that a number of informal nondenominational groups do the same thing on a case by case basis. I prefer it because it does not create an unequal relationship between church leadership and members. Since we are not looking to some supposed expert to go get truth for us, it forces each of us to go do our own study and research. More importantly, it forces us to go experience God for ourselves. I also like the less formal, more relaxed feel of it.
As I did say, "in a perfect world." I don't expect everyone will be able to get it to work for them. Still, if the JW's and the Mormons are doing it with 7 million and 15 million members respectively, it does beg the question why it can't be done by everyone else. Granted, I'm opening the door to a whole lot of "they aren't 100% unpaid clergy" stuff. At the congregational level, they are. At the regional level, they are. Beyond that, I'm a bit fuzzy on the details. But it does seem that the bulk of Christianity opts for the model that human laziness spontaneously creates: A paid professional clergy.
Televangelists don't earn a salary... they get donations from viewers. I guess that's biblical according to many posters here.... and they're working by using their hands... of course they're putting them in the pockets of the vulnerable unchurched.
Some posts tell me there maybe some resentment against clergy, just a gut feeling... and since the Bible speaks of money over 300 times it's no wonder people get so charged. Paying a salary does not make for a lazy church or receiving one, a bamboozler.
Who isn't please with the sacrifice of clergy? We all want to follow Jesus's example in others.
I agree. I'd put an axe to the pulpit and tell them to minister one to another in an orderly fashion, always being prepared to share what God is saying to them, showing and doing in them for the edifying of body.
You can keep the pulpit. It's a great place to put your notes and stuff when it's your turn to minister to the congregation. But I think we're on the same page. When we minister to one another rather than expecting to experience God via a weekly spoon feeding, everyone is better for it.
A lot of people object to all organized religion but I think they're painting with to broad a brush. I think what they're really objecting to is the sense of inequality between members and clergy and arrogant "we're right and everyone else is going to hell because they're wrong" behavior/attitude. Organized religion does not have to create either of these things. It comes down to how it is organized and how the people in the organization behave.
You can keep the pulpit. It's a great place to put your notes and stuff when it's your turn to minister to the congregation. But I think we're on the same page. When we minister to one another rather than expecting to experience God via a weekly spoon feeding, everyone is better for it.
A lot of people object to all organized religion but I think they're painting with to broad a brush. I think what they're really objecting to is the sense of inequality between members and clergy and arrogant "we're right and everyone else is going to hell because they're wrong" behavior/attitude. Organized religion does not have to create either of these things. It comes down to how it is organized and how the people in the organization behave.
I'm currently attending a more Restorationist minded congregation. There is structure and leadership, but we take turns as directed by the Holy Spirit. We all teach. We all learn. We believe this is the way God intended Christianity to operate all along. As luck would have it, we do have several of members who have studied deeply -- moreso than most professional clergy members that I've met actually -- but nobody gets paid. It does seem to be one of those items that many Restorationists religions have in common: An unpaid lay clergy. I know for sure that Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter-Day Saints do this on a world-wide scale. I know that a number of informal nondenominational groups do the same thing on a case by case basis. I prefer it because it does not create an unequal relationship between church leadership and members. Since we are not looking to some supposed expert to go get truth for us, it forces each of us to go do our own study and research. More importantly, it forces us to go experience God for ourselves. I also like the less formal, more relaxed feel of it.
As I did say, "in a perfect world." I don't expect everyone will be able to get it to work for them. Still, if the JW's and the Mormons are doing it with 7 million and 15 million members respectively, it does beg the question why it can't be done by everyone else. Granted, I'm opening the door to a whole lot of "they aren't 100% unpaid clergy" stuff. At the congregational level, they are. At the regional level, they are. Beyond that, I'm a bit fuzzy on the details. But it does seem that the bulk of Christianity opts for the model that human laziness spontaneously creates: A paid professional clergy.
The examples you give, and I have as well, tell us no pay is needed. So why are any pastors paid by a church if it isn't needed? There is a problem here where the majority of churches have a paid clergy, when one is NOT necessary.
I know of a Home Church and others where no pay exists. Why is this not the case everywhere? Probably of course because once it started how do you stop it. Plus many church goers want a clergy to do what they should. They sir back and are told they are saved and they say the pastors do the preaching work, so they don't. They don't know enough, are not motivated enough, etc. So what are these pastors being paid for; baby sitters????
Televangelists don't earn a salary... they get donations from viewers. I guess that's biblical according to many posters here.... and they're working by using their hands... of course they're putting them in the pockets of the vulnerable unchurched.
Some posts tell me there maybe some resentment against clergy, just a gut feeling... and since the Bible speaks of money over 300 times it's no wonder people get so charged. Paying a salary does not make for a lazy church or receiving one, a bamboozler.
Who isn't please with the sacrifice of clergy? We all want to follow Jesus's example in others.
I believe I'm done with this thread.
I didn't mean to offend. Paid clergy is the traditional status quo. That is what is familiar to the vast majority of Christians. That is what they are comfortable with. If you are comfortable with it, fine and good.
You do seem to have understood me backwards. Paid clergy is the direct result of lazy Christians, not the other way around. If past generations of Christians had not been lazy, there would be no paid clergy today.
I am by no means accusing professional clergymen of being bad people or being a pack of swindlers.
In my opinion, most professional religionists start with only the best of intentions.
The unequal relationship with their flock can and does lead to bad things. Arrogance. Entitlement. Basking in the admiration of your flock, looking down from up on the pedestal they've put you on. Even if it corrupts only slightly or a low percentage of professional clergymen, it clearly corrupts some.
The position of "most holy guy at our church" does few favors for the pastor.
It does act as a crutch, allowing church-goers to let somebody else do their spiritual stuff for them because they wouldn't get around to it otherwise.
I am at a complete loss ... what good does this relationship do for the members of the congregation? Surely there must be some major positives to the traditional paid clergy model. I just can't for the life of me think of any.
None of that amounts to ingratitude for the sacrifices that many pastors, ministers, priests, bishops, etc make. I fully realize that most are not filthy rich, but are poor humble people.
End of the day, this is my opinion and what I think is best for me and people like me. It does not necessarily apply to anyone else. Everyone can do what they want and I'm fine with that.
What can we agree on? Let me ask... for clarification.
Does a local body of believers (elders) have the right to decide to pay a pastor or not pay a pastor?
You seem to be going in circles here. You've already asked if it is ok for a Pastor to be paid wages. I instructed you to use a Bible Dictionary or do a keyword search at Bible Gateway to study the examples of who receives wages in scripture. I guess it didn't produce for you? Now you've replaced the word wages with the word Pay. Again here you go --> BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible word or phrase in 64 languages and 169 versions. Btw, the word Pastor is only used once in scripture. See our Lords instruction below
Ephesians 4:1-15
New International Version (NIV)
4 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”[b]
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
^^^Here our Lord instructed the Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers to equip HIS PEOPLE for works of service.
Pastors are just one part of this group. Elder, Overseer Bishop, Pastors are used interchangeably. Our Lord is instructing this group is that they are Prisoners for the Lord. A very selfless calling. Not to be tossed to and fro with every doctrine and the finality as expected, just as Paul's finalities end with regarding the teaching of this group, is to avoid the cunning and craftiness, and deceitful scheming of false teachers.
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Last edited by californiawomann5; 12-29-2013 at 11:36 PM..
Titus 1: 4-9
4 To Titus, my true son in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Appointing Elders Who Love What Is Good
5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint[a] elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe[b] and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing sordid gain. 8 Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
Since we've established ^^that there is no one Pastor in the Christian church, that makes the original question based on a false presumption. Therefore it is unanswerable
Let's re-phrase it-
Quote:
Can the Group of Elders/Bishops?/Overseers/Pastors be paid for fulfilling their high calling?
1 Peter 5: 1-2
1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and cwitness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,
2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.
Those traits do not appear to coincide with any sort of self willed gain to be had in sheparding the flock. It's just not there.
But can a Pastor receive some kind of charity for a need? Of course. Just as any church member can. But he is to be an example to the flock, and we know through Paul's repeated exhortions that means being a hard worker of the kind of work that is self sustaining. The type of work that assists the weak or afflicted, not based in handouts. There are many ways to support a needy sheep, no matter their position in the church. It appears scripture discourages any actual profit being had by Church Leaders. But re-arranging finances to be able to qualify for Food Stamps is not forbidden. Giving a gas card is not forbidden, though life will go on if a monetary gas donation is had. As would if a monetary donation for Food, Clothing which Paul DOES justify if there is a need. But again, the goal is to be a real man, an example, to support yourself. The weak can certainly be Pastors and Elders, handicapped can accept charity for as long as needed, even if it is ongoing. For obvious reasons.
If there is not enough Elders to shoulder the burden, and that causes an undue financial hardship on one person temporarily, then to meet that need until he is able to equip others is very reasonable. But it must be weighed also with the risks Paul warned us about. Elders are to be equpping the Saints for Service, no one person should carry the load.
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Last edited by californiawomann5; 12-29-2013 at 11:44 PM..
Thanks for the and . They express how I felt when I read that post addressed to me.
Fortunately I am hard to offend, but I do have a "wicked" sense of humor.
You're welcome
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You can keep the pulpit. It's a great place to put your notes and stuff when it's your turn to minister to the congregation. But I think we're on the same page. When we minister to one another rather than expecting to experience God via a weekly spoon feeding, everyone is better for it. 
and 
