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I think my point may have been missed. Dusty is a self proclaimed atheist (I have nothing wrong with him having that faith, to each his own) that comes on here regularly to mock and bash Christians (not my cup of tea but whatever flouts your boat).
My point was in regards to his answer to the question “What do you do about the Christ Rejectors?”
His reply:
“Befriend them, as a rule they are well educated and intelligent.”
The point of my reply was to say that a lot of evil people (“Christian” & non) fit that description, I like to find out a little more about a person before I friend them. Having some sort of non-violence streak tends to be more important to me than educated and intelligent. Call me crazy.
Fair enough, I do see what you mean.
We should all consider our friends. And we should remember that our standard for befriending a christian and non-christian ought to be the same. I sometimes struggle to befriend christians because i figure that they would rather be friends with christians with whom they share more in common than with me. This hesitation comes directly from experience. I expect the reverse is also true.
But you really shouldn't call atheism a faith. It isn't a faith or a belief. Like I said earlier, it isn't anything.
We should all consider our friends. And we should remember that our standard for befriending a christian and non-christian ought to be the same. I sometimes struggle to befriend christians because i figure that they would rather be friends with christians with whom they share more in common than with me. This hesitation comes directly from experience. I expect the reverse is also true.
But you really shouldn't call atheism a faith. It isn't a faith or a belief. Like I said earlier, it isn't anything.
Yep, I choose friends based on how they are or seem.
I think being atheist is faith, you believe that there is no God. Agnostics don't have any faith either way, they just don't know.
Yep, I choose friends based on how they are or seem.
I think being atheist is faith, you believe that there is no God. Agnostics don't have any faith either way, they just don't know.
Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Muslim - they are all just labels. I don't think you ever really know what someone believes unless you ask them.I mean - just look on this forum! Most people consider themselves Christian and their beliefs run the gamut. I know atheist implies lack of faith in any God - but even amongst Atheists - you'll find a wide range of beliefs or even a wide range of non-beliefs! I call myself a Heatherist because I don't feel that there is any label that describes me - agnostic/atheist/deist/who the heck knows!
As for the OP - why not just treat all people like they are all human beings? That works for me!
Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Muslim - they are all just labels. I don't think you ever really know what someone believes unless you ask them.I mean - just look on this forum! Most people consider themselves Christian and their beliefs run the gamut. I know atheist implies lack of faith in any God - but even amongst Atheists - you'll find a wide range of beliefs or even a wide range of non-beliefs! I call myself a Heatherist because I don't feel that there is any label that describes me - agnostic/atheist/deist/who the heck knows!
As for the OP - why not just treat all people like they are all human beings? That works for me!
As to your last point, I agree 100%, as long as they are. :-)
My point about atheist was in response to his post about atheists not having faith, they have faith that God does not exist, agnostics don't know, so they have no faith.
I think being atheist is faith, you believe that there is no God. Agnostics don't have any faith either way, they just don't know.
The lack of belief in something (eg you believe there is no god) is not faith. For example, let's look at the lost city of Atlantis. There are people who are quite sure it exists. Believing Atlantis exists requires faith because there is no proof. If someone does not believe Atlantis exists, does that take faith? No, it does not. Faith is not required to not believe something for which there is no proof. Similarly, faith is not required to believe something for which there is proof. Believing that apples are red is not faith. Believing that apples are the children of bananas is faith, for there is no proof to support such a position.
I understand and respect that I am in a christian forum and I certainly respect the faith of the members. If I am unwelcome, that is fine and certainly not a reflection of your faith to say so. I am happy to carry on this discussion in the religion forum if that is more appropriate.
The lack of belief in something (eg you believe there is no god) is not faith. For example, let's look at the lost city of Atlantis. There are people who are quite sure it exists. Believing Atlantis exists requires faith because there is no proof. If someone does not believe Atlantis exists, does that take faith? No, it does not. Faith is not required to not believe something for which there is no proof. Similarly, faith is not required to believe something for which there is proof. Believing that apples are red is not faith. Believing that apples are the children of bananas is faith, for there is no proof to support such a position.
I understand and respect that I am in a christian forum and I certainly respect the faith of the members. If I am unwelcome, that is fine and certainly not a reflection of your faith to say so. I am happy to carry on this discussion in the religion forum if that is more appropriate.
No worries about being welcome, you are fine.
I understand your point I just still think it is a form of faith. I believe in something even though there is no proof, an atheist believes in the lack of something even though there is no proof.
We both believe something where the proof does not exist. Neither can factually prove we are right. That takes faith.
I think we also have different uses of the word "faith." On this forum - among Christains - I think it is used solely to describe the faith in the belief of God and Jesus. As a Heatherist - although I don't have faith in the belief of God or Jesus - I do have faith in other things. I have faith in myself, my husband, my mother, my friends. I have faith that in the choices that I make. I have faith in the hearts of others. I have faith that things will turn out for the best. I have a lot of faith - just not in God or Jesus. However, I do understand that when Christians use the term faith - it is usually just referring to a belief in God and Jesus.
I don't mind talking to people about their beliefs - in fact I really enjoy it! However, being told that I'm the Devil's child or Satan's Disciple - and that I'll burn in hell for all eternity... Well, I could do with out conversations of that sort. And in fact - I believe that telling someone things like that are maybe the worst thing you could possibly do when trying to convert someone. To me - that shows me the worst of human kind and is enough to make me not ever want to buy whatever brand or religion that person is selling. But people with good hearts, people how exude love, kindness, peace - well - when I see people like that - I think "If there is a God - he is in the hearts of those people."
I think we also have different uses of the word "faith." On this forum - among Christains - I think it is used solely to describe the faith in the belief of God and Jesus. As a Heatherist - although I don't have faith in the belief of God or Jesus - I do have faith in other things. I have faith in myself, my husband, my mother, my friends. I have faith that in the choices that I make. I have faith in the hearts of others. I have faith that things will turn out for the best. I have a lot of faith - just not in God or Jesus. However, I do understand that when Christians use the term faith - it is usually just referring to a belief in God and Jesus.
I don't mind talking to people about their beliefs - in fact I really enjoy it! However, being told that I'm the Devil's child or Satan's Disciple - and that I'll burn in hell for all eternity... Well, I could do with out conversations of that sort. And in fact - I believe that telling someone things like that are maybe the worst thing you could possibly do when trying to convert someone. To me - that shows me the worst of human kind and is enough to make me not ever want to buy whatever brand or religion that person is selling. But people with good hearts, people how exude love, kindness, peace - well - when I see people like that - I think "If there is a God - he is in the hearts of those people."
You made some great points; I think belief may be a better word. I still say believing in nothing is a belief.
Don’t worry, I get called Devil’s child for not having the “correct” theology. It is a badge of honor.
I understand your point I just still think it is a form of faith. I believe in something even though there is no proof, an atheist believes in the lack of something even though there is no proof.
We both believe something where the proof does not exist. Neither can factually prove we are right. That takes faith.
Not believing in something when there is no proof is not faith, like I said before. Matters of belief aside, it is simply impossible for there to be proof of the lack of something - ie, proving a negative.
As I understand it, you are saying
A belief in God requires faith
A lack of belief in God requires faith
Let's substitute God for an "X" variable
A belief in X requires faith
A lack of belief in X requires faith
What if instead of X = God, X = that blue cupcakes cure cancer
No one would say that not believing that blue cupcakes cure cancer is a leap of faith.
From a logic standpoint, a negative cannot be proven. It is impossible. A positive can be proven. So I believe that bacon causes heart disease. That can be proven with studies.
Bringing this back to the Atheist, it is simply logical to believe there is no god in the same way that it is logical to believe that blue cupcakes do not cure cancer.
The christian belief system is no doubt complex and beautiful in its own way and of significance in recent human development - but following that belief system ultimately requires faith in something that has not been proven.
But there is no atheist belief system, because not believing is the logical conclusion of there being no proof in the same way that believing something is the logical conclusion of there being proof.
I actually think that when the christian community paints atheism or science as a faith it is doing itself a great disservice. By pitting atheism as an "opposite faith" or any kind of faith, the christian creates a level of confrontation (us vs them) where none is necessary and certainly none is helpful and any almost certainly has the opposite effect (hence the atheist backlash against those who proselytize to them). I think this false dichotomy (springing from the notion that atheism is a faith) greatly thwarts any attempts to spread the christian faith among those who do not have it already.
Instead, I think a christian would be more effective if he or she, by example, showed "the world" the positive effects of having faith in something that is beyond proof and how such a faith has improved his or her community and him or herself as an individual. Unfortunately the christian church lacks any type of central control or doctrine, so those who practice their faith in the most obnoxious manner will always come to mind first.
The root of the problem is that that the mainline evangelicals in America have decided that science is somehow incompatible with their beliefs. Science is not incompatible with christianity and until every single christian in the country figures that out, the number of christians will never increase and will likely dwindle into an insignificant number in a few short generations.
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