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Insane, of course Jesus in the Messiah as promised in the Old Testament. The whole Old Testament is not only a compilation of prophecies concerning the Messiah but also the lineage from Adam to Jesus.
Parts of it appears to be the case, BUT inserting Jesus' name on to the blank line does NOT a messiah make. Remember, he was NOT the only person being rumored to be a messiah. Anyone with some charisma and some and/or some mystical words in those volatile times was dubbed "messiah." The Romans took care of every last one of them. Just so happen that the Jesus cult managed to survive and thus their story survived and hung around long enough to be absorbed into the Roman government and the rest is history.
Of course, it was the writer's job to create the legend and fanciful stories around him to PROVE to others he was the promised messiah.
Here's a true modern story of how this is done. I had a friend (he recently died) I grew up with. We both were Christians in our teens and early 20s. He went into the military and became disillusioned with Christianity and end up joining the NOI (Nation of Islam).
Later I found out he joined some other militant group, but I did not know which group it was until we ran into each other many years later. When we talked, he started telling me about a man he met who [he claimed] was a modern day incarnation of Melchizidek, implying that this man was divine. He then went on to tell me how the man fulfilled things written in the Old Testament and he went about to TELL me what the man did (things I could not verify, as I never met the man) and then proceded to pull out his Bible to show me what backed up his stories about the man. His key argument was that man HAD to be black because Revelation 1 or 2 says that messiah's hair was like wool and his eyes red like fire which, to him (and lots of other black people), means the deity in the flesh is a black man. That man, Malachi York, is now in jail for pedophilia (I think).
Do you notice some similarities here? Here's a man who came and sold disillusioned and oppressed [black] folks (like the Jews of that time) a bag of lies telling them to bascially "search the scriptures and see if it does not speak of me," painting himself into the past to validate his current self-proclaimed status.
As I sit here, I also think of the pre-British South African leader Zulu leader, Shaka Zulu. The legend around him claims he was PREDICTED in a vision. I also think of Haile Selassie, the messiah of the Rastafarians (whom I grew up around in the Caribbean). They too have their legends about the divine origins of that former emperor and the more serious ones DENY that he ever died though autopsy reports say otherwise.
The Jesus story is NO different in my estimation and I ask you and Robin to take note of this story.
A man was walking through a forest one day and saw trees lined with bulls-eyes with arrows shot dead through the middle. He finally caught up to the skillfull archer and asked him about his amazing skills. The archer told him that what he did was extremely easy because all he did was FIRST shoot the arrow into the tree and them paint the bulls-eye around it. The bulls-eye is the Old Testament and Jesus is your arrow. Digest that a minute.
Of course it refers directly to Jesus and the Jewish chief priests thought it did as well. You are 2000 years removed from when those Jewish chief priests declared Micah was dealing with the Messiah. You do not know what you are talking about.
The writer of Matthew tells us WHAT the Jewish priests thought. The Jewish priest also said that god does NOT hear the prayers of sinners in the book of John. Do you believe that also?
Now, until you can refute what I am telling you about the passage, I continue to maintain I KNOW what I am talking about. Don't defer to what the priests thought. Tell me what you KNOW (using your comprehension skills) the passage is talking about taking history and context into question please.
Parts of it appears to be the case, BUT inserting Jesus' name on to the blank line does NOT a messiah make. Remember, he was NOT the only person being rumored to be a messiah. Anyone with some charisma and some and/or some mystical words in those volatile times was dubbed "messiah." The Romans took care of every last one of them. Just so happen that the Jesus cult managed to survive and thus their story survived and hung around long enough to be absorbed into the Roman government and the rest is history.
Insane, it is obvious you just are not properly apprised concerning all the prophetic statements concerning the Messiah and how that Messiah (Jesus) fulfilled them.
Ever hear of the 70 weeks of Daniel? From the going forth of the word to build the temple to messiah would be 70 sevens of years (i.e. 490 years). From the going forth to build the temple in Nehemiah's day to the time Christ came was the correct number of years.
Obviously the priests were right because the Ruler/Messiah was born in Bethlehem.
Or was it Nazareth?
Why of course Jesus would be born in Bethlehem according to writers like Matthew. Remember, he is the arrow that has to be shot into the tree (Old Testament)
Quote:
Under the Law God did not hear the prayers of sinners.
I see. that's quite interesting. Wonder what happened at Nineveh? Wonder why he listened to the prayer of Mannaseh, that evil king who reigned the longest on Judah's throne? What about good king Nebuchadnezzar? Thought that ALL of these folks mentioned were "sinners."
Insane, it is obvious you just are not properly apprised concerning all the prophetic statements concerning the Messiah and how that Messiah (Jesus) fulfilled them.
Ever hear of the 70 weeks of Daniel? From the going forth of the word to build the temple to messiah would be 70 sevens of years (i.e. 490 years). From the going forth to build the temple in Nehemiah's day to the time Christ came was the correct number of years.
Eusebius, you are not talking to some run of the mill atheist here my friend. I have forgotten more Bible, biblical concepts, biblical apologetics and popular christian beliefs than most Christians currently know. I was eye-brow deep in the bible for most of my life. I taught the stuff in church. I know ALL about Daniel's convuluted 70 weeks prophecy, the gap theory and all that jazz. Trust me when I tell you I KNOW what I am talking about from an OBJECTIVE standpoint.
Now, let's get back to Micah 5 and YOUR understanding of what is there in black and white please. Thanks.
Eusebius, you are not talking to some run of the mill atheist here my friend. I have forgotten more Bible, biblical concepts, biblical apologetics and popular christian beliefs than most Christians currently know. I was eye-brow deep in the bible for most of my life. I taught the stuff in church. I know ALL about Daniel's convuluted 70 weeks prophecy, the gap theory and all that jazz. Trust me when I tell you I KNOW what I am talking about from an OBJECTIVE standpoint.
Now, let's get back to Micah 5 and YOUR understanding of what is there in black and white please. Thanks.
Insane i don't mean this as a criticsm,because you are a great asset to this forum, because you get us to look at what we really believe, but i think ?? i understand from what i have bolded above,why you walked away from whatever it was you had in regards to the church,bible and christianity.
I can't begin to tell you how much knowledge i sort through whatever means has a young believer, much of what i now count as dung, because none of it really changed who i was, all it did was puff me up.Then i came to understand the heart of God towards me, something that had realsubstance, that did not puff me up, but actually edified me and began to change who i was.
For me what we know as christianity today is no more right than the rest of the religions of the world.
Philemon 1:6 says "That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus"
.
I find every good thing in this life is in Christ Jesus himself,and not in any interpretation of the bible,and only in him have i found grace,mercy,love and all else that in this life that could be considered every good thing ,and what'smore it's all in an abundance.This to me is what makes Jesus Lord,because there is none like him.
Insane, of course Jesus in the Messiah as promised in the Old Testament. The whole Old Testament is not only a compilation of prophecies concerning the Messiah but also the lineage from Adam to Jesus.
RESPONSE:
Jesus failed to fulfill the major messianic prophecies.
Did Jesus ever sit on the throne of Israel, ie, be it's king?
(2 Sam 7:16) And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.'"
Did Jesus return all the Jews to Israel?
(Isaiah 43:5-6).Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, and from the west I will gather you.I will say to the north, Give up, and to the south, Do not withhold;bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth
Apparently, you are using Luke's lineage. Please note that this passes through Nathan, while the lineage of the messiah has to pass through Solomon.
Luke 3:31.......son of Nathan, son of David,
2 Sam 7:12-13 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
Note: David's son Solomon, not Nathan, built the Temple.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 12-10-2010 at 04:21 PM..
Reason: typo
Insane i don't mean this as a criticsm,because you are a great asset to this forum, because you get us to look at what we really believe, but i think ?? i understand from what i have bolded above,why you walked away from whatever it was you had in regards to the church,bible and christianity.
I can't begin to tell you how much knowledge i sort through whatever means has a young believer, much of what i now count as dung, because none of it really changed who i was, all it did was puff me up.Then i came to understand the heart of God towards me, something that had realsubstance, that did not puff me up, but actually edified me and began to change who i was.
For me what we know as christianity today is no more right than the rest of the religions of the world.
Philemon 1:6 says "That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus"
.
I find every good thing in this life is in Christ Jesus himself,and not in any interpretation of the bible,and only in him have i found grace,mercy,love and all else that in this life that could be considered every good thing ,and what'smore it's all in an abundance.This to me is what makes Jesus Lord,because there is none like him.
Hey PC, I know what I said sounded arrogant and especially in light of the view of humility that [some] versions of Christianity teaches, it would sound as if I am being arrogant about it all now. Well frankly, I said it to simply bury the notion for some here, that I am someone who speaks with NO knowledge about Christianity, what Christians think, what they WILL say, how they will answer and so on. It's to immediately derail any wild ideas that I 'just dont get it.'
Now, that being said, I'll say something else that might sound arrogant also. You will hardly come across a humbler, more modest or nicer guy than me. Fun loving, full of wit and humor, peaceable, endearing, very patient (you have to be around here), upstanding and ALWAYS ready with a smile. I was this BEFORE I became a Christian and now, long after I've left that faith. There is no Jesus "in me" having me act more "Christian" than many Christians. For those who think that ALL unbelievers have this deep 'void' or misery than can only be 'filled with the peace of Jesus,' the are sadly mistaken. Some of us are QUITE comfortable in the skin we're in. I'm one of them. No fear, no regrets and at peace.
Jesus failed to fulfill the major messianic prophecies.
Did Jesus ever sit on the throne of Israel, ie, be it's king?
(2 Sam 7:16) And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.'"
Did Jesus return all the Jews to Israel?
(Isaiah 43:5-6).Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, and from the west I will gather you.I will say to the north, Give up, and to the south, Do not withhold;bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth
Apparently, you are using Luke's lineage. Please note that this passes through Nathan, while the lineage of the messiah has to pass through Solomon.
Luke 3:31.......son of Nathan, son of David,
2 Sam 7:12-13 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
Note: David's son Solomon, not Nathan, built the Temple.
This will be refuted with the "that's in still in the future when he comes back again" argument, Ancient Warrior. Try again.
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