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I have yet to see you "show" any support from the Word of God for the celebration of christmas. The audacity of suggesting you have proven the Bible would encourage it is incredulous.
You seem stuck in a loop of trying to prove it is OK to celebrate birthdays, and have missed the points about christmas all together.
1) It is NOT Jesus birthday therefore NOT a real birthday celebration
2) The origin of the celebration is pagan and timed around the solstace and it's relation to Roman gods.
3) It is filled with pagan idols, imagery and rituals
4) The Bible explicitly prohibits the mixing of pagan and Christian religious celebrations.
Your continued references to celebrations in the Bible that are coincident with the a birthday fail to address the key issues with the christmas celebration. Your presentations seem out of context. I could see your point if Jesus birthday was known, and the celebration did not have of the trappings of a pagan religious festival, but that is not the case.
I find it troubling that you find it "so fun" to use of the Bible to demonstrate how you can ignore the principles found in another part: promoting the incorporation of a pagan ritual into Christian worship is not acceptable to God. Your inane redundancy of saying birthday celebrations are accepted is moot, and does not address the real issues. Its origin is in the Roman holiday for the birth of the new sun, not the Christian holiday for the birth of God's Son.
Denial is always an option. However, for you to revel in your denial and crow about your superior use of the Bible to justify your embracing of pagan religious entanglements is going a bit to far. I think it warrants a review of who is really ignoring the issue and hiding behind superfluous Bible quoting. What about addressing the Bible principles in regards to mixing pagan and Christian beliefs (already cited)? Are you blinded to this part of the Bible and it's pertinence to this aspect of the christmas celebration?
I think you need to understand that one can use your "it is pagan" false premise to discredit the birth of Christ from the womb of the virgin, and His death and His resurrection, and any other part of the Gospel story, as everything true has been hijacked by the devil to try to destroy it's validity, and one can prove that "it is pagan! -But God came first, and from the beginning He has had one story, and all that is "pagan" had its origins in the truth, and got twisted away from the truth. There is not one Scripture that demands that Christians -or Jews for that matter- neglect to celebrate the birthdays -or the anniversaries of the births- of Jesus Christ come in flesh or of any other human being born in Adam.
It is stupid to lay claim that it is forbidden because Pharaoah had a birthday party, and since Pharaoh made Joseph the second in command in his kingdom, he was probably not so bad after all, was he?? -H-M-M?
And as to Herod celebrating his birthday, well, so did Job's sons, with feastings in their houses, as Job 1 states, and none was more righteous than Job, and if his sons celebrated their birthdays, then it is just fine for anyone else's to do so -and their daughters, too.
And As the Jewish writings say, the Torah states that Moses was born on 7th of Adar, and the birthday was marked with much to do, with songs and prophecies and blessings, in Deut 31-34, and then he went up on the mount, and died -He had a blow-out party for Israel on his own birthday.
Then, Caleb asked for and received a birthday gift, from Joshua, on his 85th birthday, and got Hebron as a present that day -his birthday.
So there you have it! God's Word does not forbid birthday celebrations, and God puts on the biggest ones -Oh! -and Noah went into the Ark on his 600th birthday [as the Jews know and teach], and escaped the judgment of the flood, with his three sons and their wives, and with what was in the ark, so as to come out in the new world; for the old world perished in the flood. -What a birthday gift God gave him!
As to celebrations and ceremonies, and the Bible, why get married, then, after all, it is a "pagan" thing to do, and no one in the Bible got licenses and went through ceremonies. God just brought the Ishyah cloned from the ish to him, that he built from his rib bone, flesh and bloo,d by the remnant of the one spirit inherent in the Adam creation [Malachi 2:15]. There was no big celebration or marking of the day in the "Word" -so why get married and get licenses from the state?? H-M-M! methinks you have a nastry religious spirit, as I said, and that you add to the Word of God the precepts of men by twisting the Word, and expect to get the blind to follow you into the ditch.
But to those who see !~Merry Christmas~! -and to whomever is celebrating the anniversary of their birth on this day, may you have it marked from above, by the Creator, as Job knew his was, and may you have great joy in the presence of God with you.
methinks you have a nastry religious spirit, as I said, and that you add to the Word of God the precepts of men by twisting the Word, and expect to get the blind to follow you into the ditch.
WOW! I get that condemnation from you for pointing out the pagan origins of the christmas celebration requesting and you to explain how that does not conflict with the Bible principle of intermingling pagan and Christian worship?
Why is it that you continue to focus on the birthday aspect? Those are personal celebrations, not religious events. christmas is celebrated as a religious event.
Do you really believe Jesus was born on Dec 25th?
Is it just coincidence that it fell on the same day as the pagan holiday for the winter solstice?
Why are all these pagan symbols and rituals part of this birthday celebration?
Doesn't the Bible condemn the mixing of pagan and Christian worship?
I am not challenging your "religious spirit". However, since you have espressed your belief in your religious superiority, I was just expecting to hear some reasonable response and to these questions, not the evasions you have been presenting.
You appear to be incapable of accepting the fact that Dec 25th is not Jesus birthday, nor do you acknowledge the pagan trappings of the christmas celebration and that they should have no association with Jesus. If you have some scriptural support for incorporating pagan religious rites into your Christian worship present them.
As far as your point about weddings... We get licenses because it is the law, and we follow the law as long as it does not break God's law. We have wedding ceremonies for the couple and the community, annoucing and celebrating their union. It is not part of religious worship although God is a part of the covenant for Christians. I cannot speak for weddings in general, but none that i have attended included any of the trappings of pagan religious rituals, like christmas does.
WOW! I get that condemnation from you for pointing out the pagan origins of the christmas celebration requesting and you to explain how that does not conflict with the Bible principle of intermingling pagan and Christian worship?
Why is it that you continue to focus on the birthday aspect? Those are personal celebrations, not religious events. christmas is celebrated as a religious event.
Do you really believe Jesus was born on Dec 25th?
Is it just coincidence that it fell on the same day as the pagan holiday for the winter solstice?
Why are all these pagan symbols and rituals part of this birthday celebration?
Doesn't the Bible condemn the mixing of pagan and Christian worship?
I am not challenging your "religious spirit". However, since you have espressed your belief in your religious superiority, I was just expecting to hear some reasonable response and to these questions, not the evasions you have been presenting.
You appear to be incapable of accepting the fact that Dec 25th is not Jesus birthday, nor do you acknowledge the pagan trappings of the christmas celebration and that they should have no association with Jesus. If you have some scriptural support for incorporating pagan religious rites into your Christian worship present them.
As far as your point about weddings... We get licenses because it is the law, and we follow the law as long as it does not break God's law. We have wedding ceremonies for the couple and the community, annoucing and celebrating their union. It is not part of religious worship although God is a part of the covenant for Christians. I cannot speak for weddings in general, but none that i have attended included any of the trappings of pagan religious rituals, like christmas does.
Actually, I am sorry that I addressed your post with a reply intended for the OP poster...I thought that was from him, and I really do not look at who posts many times when the theme is the same, over and over, that was already answered by Scripture.
Merry Christmas~ -or not. Have it as you please, but leave mine alone
PS, I was guilty of not noticing your name when I posted as if to the OP poster, but I see that you are guilty of not reading my posts before replying to me, as I have made the Biblical case that the birth of Jesus Christ come in flesh is at Tabernacles, and the incarnation is stated in the Bible to be on the 24th day of the ninth month, nine months before Tabernacles, which anniversary is now on the the eve before the feast celebrating the miracle of the Lights in the time of the Maccabees -long after the prophecy of His incarnation dated on the 24th day of the ninth month as the Foundation Stone laid in Zion, in Haggai 2, for the true second temple [of man]. The Jews decided to celebrate the anniversary of that miracle of lights, always, which happened in the time of the Maccabees. God did not command them to do so. They began the tradition, themselves, and Jesus also celebrated Channukah's customs, as He was a Jew. Read my posts on the subject, and see why I "redeem the time" and use the western Church's Holy Day of celebration of the birth of Jesus as a time to share Jesus' with all my friends and relations and aquaintances -and we love the season cause we believe in the Reason
It is a nasty religious spirit that condemns others for celebrating the birth of Christ or condemns Christians for honoring others on the anniversaries of their births. It is ok to do whatever you think pleases the LORD yourself, by faith, but to condemn others for doing what they believe is honoring the LORD, by faith, is a sinful thing to do -and I do not know any Christians who worship pagan gods on Christmas.
Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 12-16-2010 at 12:03 AM..
As far as your point about weddings... We get licenses because it is the law...
Nope, you follow tradition. No Christian has to get a license from the state to be married, in God's eyes. That is not biblical and it is not "law". Isaac just took Rebecca into his deceased mother's tent, and they were man and wife! Customs change, but the custom of the state's involvement in a Christian's marriage is all about "custom =tribute", paid to the state to "get permission" from them.
I have a state license and a Church certificate and my husband and I have been married for 47 years, but the Bible does not teach that the state has authority to permit a marriage between a male and a female.
Is it just coincidence that it fell on the same day as the pagan holiday for the winter solstice?
Doesn't the Bible condemn the mixing of pagan and Christian worship?
The fact is that the group that celebrated "winter solstace" came long after Haggai prophecied the incarnation of the New Man =Christ in flesh- on the 24th day of the ninth month. Many times, the 24th day of the ninth month in the Hebrew calendar coincides with Dec 25th, so you cannot prove that "pagans" were not used by the devil to steal the most Holy Day of the incarnation away, to twist it all up into something else -just like the homosexual community tries to take over sacred matrimony by lowering that God ordained union into something straight from hell.
Hanukkah celebrated (http://www.nsnews.com/life/Hanukkah+celebrated/2881242/story.html?id=2881242 - broken link)
The incarnation was as close to Christmas as one can get -the birth of Christ come in flesh was nine months later, at Tabernacles, and God gave Israel a really big celebration for Jesus' birthday, to celebrate annually . Messianic Jews know that Tabernacles is Jesus birth day, the others will know, when Jesus returns and sets everything right: meantime, Gentiles havea custom of celebrating His birth at what is sometimes His actual incarnation date -and so what!!!!
Again, as stated previously there has been no evidence to show that Apostles ever celebrated the birthday of Christ.
Ask yourself this:
1.) Jesus commanded some things to be observed in rememberance of Him, but not birthday celebrations.
2.) None of the Apostles stated or advised to celebrate ANY birthday.
3.) Jesus should be worshipped 24/7 all days of the year. One day is just a degradation of our obligation.
4.) Jesus is God with us and God is Spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit. Most of the Christmas day celebration is filled with carnal rituals.
5.) Jesus said if we love those who love us what reward have we. On Christmas day most only spend it with loved ones - it is not a time when people reach out to their enemies to bless them.
6.) Christmas doesn't reflect the true birthday of Jesus Christ.
7.) The Spirit that Christ has was never born - it always existed.
8.) When one becomes a Christian they are called to humulity realizing that their former selves were horrid and not deserving of praise - so as a Christian we should loathe the praising of our own carnal birth.
9.) The Jews of the Old Testament tradition was not to celebrate birthdays.
10.) Beware of those that try to tell you to observe Christmas. Anyone that believes we need more rituals to be closer to God lacks the liberation that is in Christ Jesus and promoting a legalistic agenda.
Jesus did not command "some things" to be observed in remembrance of Him, rather, Jesus opened the understanding of His Apostles to the meaning of the unleavened bread and the meaning of "the fourth cup", "the cup of Salvation", which was the last cup served at the Passover supper.
It is not understood unless you understand the Oracles the Jews were given to rehearse about the Person and work of the New Man.
The Law and the Prophets were witnesses to Jesus, and the Living Oracles were given only to the namesake people of the New Man name. Jesus opens the understanding of His people, and if you want to understand the Living Oracles, then you need to search out Messianic Jewish sites and see the understandings opened to many of them -here a little, there a little.
1Cr 11:25After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.
Here are some Jewish sites, to help you gain understanding -not Messanic, search those out for yourself.
Quote:
The Four Cups - Pesach at OU.ORG Moreover, the fourth cup of wine is in commemoration of the Jewish people becoming a nation. This redemption did not culminate in G-d delivering the people from Egypt, but it was a salvation which has shaped the Jewish people. They were a nation that had the distinction of being chosen for redemption by HaShem, and a nation that would cherish the miraculous events that led to their salvation. The Jews, at this point, became a nation that would carry the message of Exodus to the entire world for generations to come.
I already addressed your errors otherwise. The Apostles were Jews. They celebrated the birthday of Jesus every year, until they died, at the Feast of Weeks/Tabernacles, when God put on the human being body as the Tabernacle of New Man, to dwell with us =Emmanuel!
You err to try to make strawmen to knock down, as no Christians command anyone to "keep Christmas", and you, rather, sin against the LORD in commanding Believers to "not keep Christmas". It is not your business to command Believers to not keep a day, for that is addressed in Scripture to you, and you are to not try to be the conscience and "god" of any other believers.
Christ is the Spirit who is come incarnate, and we celebrate His coming, with joy.
I get to do it everyday! I don't have to wait until Dec 25th. His Spirit is as great today as it is any day.
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