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Eusebius is making some interesting points I hadn't considered.
That said when I read the Old Testament I think I assumed what it meant was that every nation had its own "guardian angel" but the God of Israel was God. So in that case it would be like an editor named Ronald saying, "When I picked assignments I gave some to Percy, Phil, and Gypsy but Ronald has declared he will be mentor to Jake alone." So "El" is like "I", just a regular pronoun, and Yahweh is like the proper name. It might seem odd linguistically to switch from first-person to third-person to describe yourself, but I think that's how I took it at the time.
Now if "El" isn't just the word "God" and there really is something in Ugarit that refers to Yahweh as a son of El but not El this is problematic. I know of one inscription that says "Yw son of El" but I think there might be some debate as to whether "Yw" really is "Yahweh" as I only saw it mentioned in one source. Others think "Yahweh" is some Midianite God, although they have nothing to support that.
Some Jews are gentiles as in Revelation 2: 8-11.....Jesus said`` I know your works, and tribulation, and poverty, [but you are rich] and I know the blashemy of them which say they are Jews and are not , but are the synagogue of satan.... fear none of those things which you shall suffer, behold the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried and you shall have tribulation ten days be you faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life.......... Gentiles are people who do not know the Lord God.......
Eusebius is making some interesting points I hadn't considered.
That said when I read the Old Testament I think I assumed what it meant was that every nation had its own "guardian angel" but the God of Israel was God. So in that case it would be like an editor named Ronald saying, "When I picked assignments I gave some to Percy, Phil, and Gypsy but Ronald has declared he will be mentor to Jake alone." So "El" is like "I", just a regular pronoun, and Yahweh is like the proper name. It might seem odd linguistically to switch from first-person to third-person to describe yourself, but I think that's how I took it at the time.
Now if "El" isn't just the word "God" and there really is something in Ugarit that refers to Yahweh as a son of El but not El this is problematic. I know of one inscription that says "Yw son of El" but I think there might be some debate as to whether "Yw" really is "Yahweh" as I only saw it mentioned in one source. Others think "Yahweh" is some Midianite God, although they have nothing to support that.
Angels were the people that interacted with men. The Father Left after the fall of man in the garden. Notice that men went into sacrificing and other fetish practices. These angels are variously called Jehovah, Eloim, etc in the Old testament. Christ revealed the almighty as the Father
Let's look at Psalm 82 a little more closely shall we plus a few other points.
1. If these judges are mere humans (amongst the Israelites) or the judges of Israel or even the people of Israel, please provide a moment in Israel's history when a group of men from their ranks was responsible for the ENTIRE earth? (See Psalm 82:8)
2. Why should the earth "totter" because of their slacking in their jobs?
3. Why are mere men sentenced to die like men? Isn't this clearly redundant?
In adding a point about angels, the Hebrew word for "angels" is mal'akim and the passages in the bible that speaks of the "sons of god" is translated from the Hebrew Bene-elohim. Anyone else see a difference here?
One only need look at the first two chapters of Job to see the council in action when the adversary (satan) shows up with them. These were NOT mal'akim who were meeting before god. These were the bene-elohim. Did I not hear that Job is the oldest or one of the oldest books in the Bible?
If we now head back to the idea that the divine council are other gods, we need look no further than a mere 7 chapters ahead (chapter 89) in the book of Psalms. Here, the Jews have an exalted view of their god who is now identified with El. How is Yahweh extolled? Read this (Young's literal translation):
and the heavens confess Thy wonders, O Jehovah, Thy faithfulness also [is] in an assembly of holy ones.
For who in the sky, Compareth himself to Jehovah? Is like to Jehovah among sons of the mighty [bene-elohim]?
God is very terrible, In the secret counsel of His holy ones, And fearful over all surrounding Him. (Psalm 89:5-7)
Certainly this passage is NOT speaking about mortal men.
All throughout the Psalms we find mention of other gods and Yahweh's comparison to them (at times). Here's a list:
Psalm 86:8 - Among the gods there is none like you, O Yahweh; neither [are there any works] like your works.
Psalm 95:3 - For Yahweh is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
Psalm 96:4 - For Yahweh is great, and deserving of exceedingly great praise: he is
to be feared above all gods.
Psalm 97:7 - All who served images were put to shame; those who boasted in
mere idols; even all the gods bow down before him [Yahweh, see v. 5 preceding]
Psalm 97:9 - For you, O Yahweh, are Most High above all the earth: you are
exalted far above all gods.
Psalm 135:5 - For I know that Yahweh is great, and that our lord is above all
gods.
Psalm 136:2 - O give thanks to the God of gods: for his mercy endures for ever.
Psalm 138:1 - I will praise you with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise to you.
Humans???
Now that the context of the ENTIRE book in relation to this topic is before us, please now see if we can place Psalm 82 in context now.
Thank you
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 01-10-2011 at 06:39 PM..
Is this just another case of terrible translations or maybe spiritual evolution of humans in writing? Is it a case where one word, "hell", or one phrase is being used for entirely different things (spiritual confusion of the writer)? Maybe "sons of Elohim" sometimes means otherwordly creatures, sometimes mortal men. I know the pagans often thought mortal men were more than human, but they died just like everybody else.
*Shrug*
Mystic may be closer to the truth than many of us. The evolution of thought, from polytheistic thinking to monothesitic thinking, is apparent throughout the Bible. As is this kind of thought: "What does God want and who is he, really."
Is this just another case of terrible translations or maybe spiritual evolution of humans in writing? Is it a case where one word, "hell", or one phrase is being used for entirely different things (spiritual confusion of the writer)? Maybe "sons of Elohim" sometimes means otherwordly creatures, sometimes mortal men. I know the pagans often thought mortal men were more than human, but they died just like everybody else.
*Shrug*
Mystic may be closer to the truth than many of us. The evolution of thought, from polytheistic thinking to monothesitic thinking, is apparent throughout the Bible. As is this kind of thought: "What does God want and who is he, really."
All of the above is quite possible, but to those who believe the bible was written by men inspired by god and thus free of error, human tendencies and the evolution of religious thought, the obvious is often in conflict with their dogmatic faith in the former.
Let's look at Psalm 82 a little more closely shall we plus a few other points.
1. If these judges are mere humans (amongst the Israelites) or the judges of Israel or even the people of Israel, please provide a moment in Israel's history when a group of men from their ranks was responsible for the ENTIRE earth? (See Psalm 82:8)
2. Why should the earth "totter" because of their slacking in their jobs?
3. Why are mere men sentenced to die like men? Isn't this clearly redundant?
In adding a point about angels, the Hebrew word for "angels" is mal'akim and the passages in the bible that speaks of the "sons of god" is translated from the Hebrew Bene-elohim. Anyone else see a difference here?
One only need look at the first two chapters of Job to see the council in action when the adversary (satan) shows up with them. These were NOT mal'akim who were meeting before god. These were the bene-elohim. Did I not hear that Job is the oldest or one of the oldest books in the Bible?
If we now head back to the idea that the divine council are other gods, we need look no further than a mere 7 chapters ahead (chapter 89) in the book of Psalms. Here, the Jews have an exalted view of their god who is now identified with El. How is Yahweh extolled? Read this (Young's literal translation):
and the heavens confess Thy wonders, O Jehovah, Thy faithfulness also [is] in an assembly of holy ones.
For who in the sky, Compareth himself to Jehovah? Is like to Jehovah among sons of the mighty [bene-elohim]?
God is very terrible, In the secret counsel of His holy ones, And fearful over all surrounding Him. (Psalm 89:5-7)
Certainly this passage is NOT speaking about mortal men.
All throughout the Psalms we find mention of other gods and Yahweh's comparison to them (at times). Here's a list:
Psalm 86:8 - Among the gods there is none like you, O Yahweh; neither [are there any works] like your works.
Psalm 95:3 - For Yahweh is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
Psalm 96:4 - For Yahweh is great, and deserving of exceedingly great praise: he is
to be feared above all gods.
Psalm 97:7 - All who served images were put to shame; those who boasted in
mere idols; even all the gods bow down before him [Yahweh, see v. 5 preceding]
Psalm 97:9 - For you, O Yahweh, are Most High above all the earth: you are
exalted far above all gods.
Psalm 135:5 - For I know that Yahweh is great, and that our lord is above all
gods.
Psalm 136:2 - O give thanks to the God of gods: for his mercy endures for ever.
Psalm 138:1 - I will praise you with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise to you.
Humans???
Now that the context of the ENTIRE book in relation to this topic is before us, please now see if we can place Psalm 82 in context now.
Thank you
I should add that the Psalms were not all written by David (as I have heard some Christians say). They are a collection of poetry from different eras of Israelite history.
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The arrogance NEVER ceases to eventually come to the top.
