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Hi Mike!
I hope this message finds you well-rested. I'm already almost at lunch hour, but I'm on a diet so it doesn't matter too much..
Anyway,
I disagree with your post, and with the general belief of "turn or burn" for several, real-life reasons.
My first reason is sanity. You may not care about the fate of other people, but I do. And running around like a chicken with its head cut off, trying to "get everyone into heaven before they die" is not realistic nor possible. The fact that you're sleeping right now confirms that you see things the same way. If we had to "get the message out in order to save souls," there'd be no time for sleep. Which bring me to my second reason.
My second reason is the necessity of fulfilling basic life functions:
eating
drinking
getting a job
working (how can someone work at a computer or factory all day while souls are dying every hour???)
sleeping
relaxing (sabbath or not)
watching tv
browsing the internet
having a picnic with family
going shopping
seeking a partner
helping the kids with their homework
sending an email/letter
fixing a broken pipe
going to the bathroom
taking cold medication
telling someone you love them
solving a math problem
paying the bills
having a baby
buying the groceries
having the car fixed
spending time with grandparents
voting
taking a vacation
resolving an argument
drawing with crayons
going to the bank
talking with the phone company about new rates
driving to work
waiting for the laundry
washing the car
getting dressed
......
Well, I think you get the idea.
All of these things take time, and we would not be involved with them if people's eternal fates were at stake. In fact, I don't think we'd even take the time to wash ourselves, if we TRULY believed that people were falling into some eternal abyss of fire every hour.
Thirdly, another very basic fact of life, is that people die at all ages.
If there were such a thing as "age of accountability," then we should hope to God that we would get hit by a bus before we reached it. People wouldn't have children. After all, why risk it? Why put their souls at stake?
In real life, people die, get sick, get lost, get confused. That is the condition of the real world.
This is the world that God has put us in, and He will find the way for all of us to be rejoined to Him in the end. The early church was not preaching hell, and I think this is why they didn't. They knew that God is a God of Love, not a God of indifference.
Love ya all the same Mike!
brian
Exactly. This is just but one of so many conflicts in the doctrine of "Eternal torment". If folks think that people are falling into an eternal torture chamber every second of the day, how can they even take the time to brush their teeth...? And why WOULD someone have kids? How horrible to think that God would allow us to experience that kind of intense love for another human being only to have us worrying in the back of our minds that they could possibly end up being tortured forever and it is out of our control. What a sick, twisted, and TOTAL EVIL god has mankind twisted our beautiful Creator into?? It's mind-boggling that so many have believed the ultimate horrific lie.
The masquerading of the wolf in sheeps clothing is getting too much .... I'm about to burst out of my skin or blow up this computer screen
The Bible is very clear about how one is saved:
No works ... not by obeying any law ... not by any membership of any church (mine included).....Not by the amount of faith.......... Just by grace through faith.
John 9:38
Then the man said, “Lord, Ibelieve,” and he worshiped him. ["him" being Jesus]
Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faithapart from observing the law.
Acts 15:11
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Hi Mike!
I hope this message finds you well-rested. I'm already almost at lunch hour, but I'm on a diet so it doesn't matter too much..
Anyway,
I disagree with your post, and with the general belief of "turn or burn" for several, real-life reasons.
My first reason is sanity. You may not care about the fate of other people, but I do. And running around like a chicken with its head cut off, trying to "get everyone into heaven before they die" is not realistic nor possible. The fact that you're sleeping right now confirms that you see things the same way. If we had to "get the message out in order to save souls," there'd be no time for sleep. Which bring me to my second reason.
My second reason is the necessity of fulfilling basic life functions:
eating
drinking
getting a job
working (how can someone work at a computer or factory all day while souls are dying every hour???)
sleeping
relaxing (sabbath or not)
watching tv
browsing the internet
having a picnic with family
going shopping
seeking a partner
helping the kids with their homework
sending an email/letter
fixing a broken pipe
going to the bathroom
taking cold medication
telling someone you love them
solving a math problem
paying the bills
having a baby
buying the groceries
having the car fixed
spending time with grandparents
voting
taking a vacation
resolving an argument
drawing with crayons
going to the bank
talking with the phone company about new rates
driving to work
waiting for the laundry
washing the car
getting dressed
......
Well, I think you get the idea.
All of these things take time, and we would not be involved with them if people's eternal fates were at stake. In fact, I don't think we'd even take the time to wash ourselves, if we TRULY believed that people were falling into some eternal abyss of fire every hour.
Thirdly, another very basic fact of life, is that people die at all ages.
If there were such a thing as "age of accountability," then we should hope to God that we would get hit by a bus before we reached it. People wouldn't have children. After all, why risk it? Why put their souls at stake?
In real life, people die, get sick, get lost, get confused. That is the condition of the real world.
This is the world that God has put us in, and He will find the way for all of us to be rejoined to Him in the end. The early church was not preaching hell, and I think this is why they didn't. They knew that God is a God of Love, not a God of indifference.
Love ya all the same Mike!
brian
If you cared about the fate of people you wouldn't be spreading the lie that all people will be saved when you know full well that the Bible (which you reject) says otherwise.
The early church did indeed recognize the reality of eternal punishment as can be seen by the quotes from the early church fathers.
From “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The author of the Epistle of Barnabas is unknown, but many consider him to simply be who he said he was, Barnabas, the associate of Paul who is mentioned in the Book of Acts. The letter was written to new converts to Christianity:
'The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.' (“Epistle of Barnabas”)
From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:
'Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him.' (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)
From Clement of Rome (150AD)
Clement was Bishop of Rome from 88 to 98AD, and his teaching reflects the early traditions of the Church. "Second Clement" reportedly a recorded sermon, and Clement discusses the nature of Hell:
'If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment.' (“Second Clement” 5:5)
'But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!' (“Second Clement” 17:7)
From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:
'Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire' (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
Athenagoras was a philosopher and citizen of Athens who became a Christian (possibly from Platonism) and wrote two important apologetic works; “Apology” or “Embassy for the Christians”, and a “Treatise on the Resurrection”:
'We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one...or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil.' (“Apology”)
From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Theophilus was the Patriarch of Antioch from 169 to 183AD. He was born a pagan and converted to Christianity after reading the scriptures. He was very zealous about protecting the orthodoxy of the earliest believers and he wrote a defense of the faith to a man named Autolycus:
'Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire' (“To Autolycus” 1:14)
Those are a few examples.
What did Paul himself teach about those who reject the gospel message?
2 Thess 1:7 '...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire 8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9] And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'
Now. About that ridiculous statement you made concerning not taking the time to do the basic necessities of life in order to get the word out. Here is what Jesus told His apostles concerning those who would not listen to the Kingdom message [the Jews equated the kingdom with salvation]. Matthew 10:14 ''And whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15] Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.'' The apostles were to proclaim that the kingdom of God was at hand. Those who rejected the message were to be left to their unbelief.
Universalists do not care about the fate of people after death. They care only about spreading the false message which is Univeralism.
Eternal separation from God in conscious torment awaits those who die having rejected Christ as Savior. And it is those who warn about that fact who care. But having been warned, it is up to the recipient of that warning to believe the message. If they reject it, that is their right and their volitIon is to be respected. They will reap the consequences of their decision. Now, eternal punishment isn't good news and so isn't the gospel message. But it is the reality for those who reject the good news [the gospel] of salvation.
If you cared about the fate of people you wouldn't be spreading the lie that all people will be saved when you know full well that the Bible (which you reject) says otherwise.
The early church did indeed recognize the reality of eternal punishment as can be seen by the quotes from the early church fathers.
From “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The author of the Epistle of Barnabas is unknown, but many consider him to simply be who he said he was, Barnabas, the associate of Paul who is mentioned in the Book of Acts. The letter was written to new converts to Christianity:
'The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.' (“Epistle of Barnabas”)
From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:
'Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him.' (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)
From Clement of Rome (150AD)
Clement was Bishop of Rome from 88 to 98AD, and his teaching reflects the early traditions of the Church. "Second Clement" reportedly a recorded sermon, and Clement discusses the nature of Hell:
'If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment.' (“Second Clement” 5:5)
'But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!' (“Second Clement” 17:7)
From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:
'Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire' (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
Athenagoras was a philosopher and citizen of Athens who became a Christian (possibly from Platonism) and wrote two important apologetic works; “Apology” or “Embassy for the Christians”, and a “Treatise on the Resurrection”:
'We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one...or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil.' (“Apology”)
From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Theophilus was the Patriarch of Antioch from 169 to 183AD. He was born a pagan and converted to Christianity after reading the scriptures. He was very zealous about protecting the orthodoxy of the earliest believers and he wrote a defense of the faith to a man named Autolycus:
'Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire' (“To Autolycus” 1:14)
Those are a few examples.
What did Paul himself teach about those who reject the gospel message?
2 Thess 1:7 '...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire 8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9] And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'
Now. About that ridiculous statement you made concerning not taking the time to do the basic necessities of life in order to get the word out. Here is what Jesus told His apostles concerning those who would not listen to the Kingdom message [the Jews equated the kingdom with salvation]. Matthew 10:14 ''And whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15] Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.'' The apostles were to proclaim that the kingdom of God was at hand. Those who rejected the message were to be left to their unbelief.
Universalists do not care about the fate of people after death. They care only about spreading the false message which is Univeralism.
Eternal separation from God in conscious torment awaits those who die having rejected Christ as Savior. And it is those who warn about that fact who care. But having been warned, it is up to the recipient of that warning to believe the message. If they reject it, that is their right and their volitIon is to be respected. They will reap the consequences of their decision. Now, eternal punishment isn't good news and so isn't the gospel message. But it is the reality for those who reject the good news [the gospel] of salvation.
Morning Mike,
(I usually don't quote "non-biblical" sources, since fundamentalists reject them outright. You quoted many of them, but I don't know whether others would consider them "valid." Of course, I could quote some if you want..)
Universalism tells us that God is Love. How is that "not caring?" Universalism is believing that hell will not conquer; that God is not irrational and hot-headed and vengeful, but merciful, desiring that ALL come to a knowledge of the Truth (Jesus).
Again, real life teaches us that ET is false; otherwise you wouldn't have been sleeping so soundly last night, believe me.
Repeat: the real world makes it clear that God does not leave salvation up to puny man.
What about the gang-rapists mentioned on another thread here, whom you kindly suggested "taking out and shooting in the head?" They may have been used mightily by the LORD, but you want them eliminated!
Real world, Mike. Not even you believe in eternal hell. It makes no sense at all, and it is not in God's nature.
Real world. Real life situations make it clear. Every time you take a minute to brush your teeth, someone is going to hell.
(I usually don't quote "non-biblical" sources, since fundamentalists reject them outright. You quoted many of them, but I don't know whether others would consider them "valid." Of course, I could quote some if you want..)
Universalism tells us that God is Love. How is that "not caring?" Universalism is believing that hell will not conquer; that God is not irrational and hot-headed and vengeful, but merciful, desiring that ALL come to a knowledge of the Truth (Jesus).
Again, real life teaches us that ET is false; otherwise you wouldn't have been sleeping so soundly last night, believe me.
Repeat: the real world makes it clear that God does not leave salvation up to puny man.
What about the gang-rapists mentioned on another thread here, whom you kindly suggested "taking out and shooting in the head?" They may have been used mightily by the LORD, but you want them eliminated!
Real world, Mike. Not even you believe in eternal hell. It makes no sense at all, and it is not in God's nature.
Real world. Real life situations make it clear. Every time you take a minute to brush your teeth, someone is going to hell.
Real world.
Blessings,
brian
You said that the early church did not teach eternal punishment. I have given you quotes from some of the early church fathers. AND YOU REJECT THEM BECAUSE THEY PUT THE LIE TO YOUR CLAIM!!! You are in utter rejection of the truth. You will not face reality. You prefer to manufacture a fantasy and then live in it. But I tell you this. The moment you die, you are goig to find out all about reality.
As for this statement you keep making, 'Again, real life teaches us that ET is false; otherwise you wouldn't have been sleeping so soundly last night, believe me.' only a fool would believe that. You put your subjective feelings above the word of God.
You said that the early church did not teach eternal punishment. I have given you quotes from some of the early church fathers. AND YOU REJECT THEM BECAUSE THEY PUT THE LIE TO YOUR CLAIM!!! You are in utter rejection of the truth. You will not face reality. You prefer to manufacture a fantasy and then live in it. But I tell you this. The moment you die, you are goig to find out all about reality.
As for this statement you keep making, 'Again, real life teaches us that ET is false; otherwise you wouldn't have been sleeping so soundly last night, believe me.' only a fool would believe that. You put your subjective feelings above the word of God.
And Do not tell me what I do and do not believe.
If I tell the truth and you are offended, does that mean I should lie??
You do not believe in the punishments you preach, because you would not be able to sleep one single night if you truly did.
Either that or you are heartless. And no, I'm not insulting you. There are heartless people in the world, we both know it.
And if you are heartless, then know that Jesus can give you the heart you are looking for Mike.
I do hope that this post isn't edited because I am not wanting to insult you. I simply see your preaching as heartless. I don't know what other word to use. Maybe others have a suggestion.
The book of Acts does not give ONE example of the preaching you do. Period.
And 2 obscure verses about "punishment" but that don't tell specifically what it is, ought to be left to speculation, unless you have the Spirit of God without measure. And I know that you don't.
If I tell the truth and you are offended, does that mean I should lie??
You do not believe in the punishments you preach, because you would not be able to sleep one single night if you truly did.
Either that or you are heartless. And no, I'm not insulting you. There are heartless people in the world, we both know it.
And if you are heartless, then know that Jesus can give you the heart you are looking for Mike.
I do hope that this post isn't edited because I am not wanting to insult you. I simply see your preaching as heartless. I don't know what other word to use. Maybe others have a suggestion.
The book of Acts does not give ONE example of the preaching you do. Period.
And 2 obscure verses about "punishment" but that don't tell specifically what it is, ought to be left to speculation, unless you have the Spirit of God without measure. And I know that you don't.
Peace,
brian
This is a good example of who and what satan is & does.... he's the accuser of the brethren for one thing....
Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
Clearly the irony of making this accusation escapes you, Cyber.
Not accusation, it is the truth of what satan does and Brian stands being an instrument of satan accusing Mike of being heartless and without faith !!!
This is a good example of who and what satan is & does.... he's the accuser of the brethren for one thing....
Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
And the accusation is..?
Blessings,
brian
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