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No, I am saying that through faith,,,repentance is WORK! Daily I have to die to self. Die to pride. Die to evil. Die to the desires of this carnality. DAILY I pick up that cross.
Without faith, there is no repentance. There is no forgiveness. There is nothing, but death.
To who? Unless you are Israel, which would be a pretty bold statement, that verse is talking about Jesus, who 'might' give them(Israel) a reason to repent, which is what John the Baptist and Jesus Himself preached,,,for the forgiveness of sins.
Your are using the wrong meaning of might as used in this passage, Hot. It means He was exalted "so that He could."
To who? Unless you are Israel, which would be a pretty bold statement, that verse is talking about Jesus, who 'might' give them(Israel) a reason to repent, which is what John the Baptist and Jesus Himself preached,,,for the forgiveness of sins.
IOW, without repentance, there IS NO FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
How would one go about repenting? By Faith, which is a GIFT of God.
Do you want one for the Gentiles too ?No problem
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God willgrant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth.
To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven.John 3:27
apart from me you can do nothing.John 15:5.
It never seizes to amaze me how we lay claim to anything,when Jesus Christ is made unto us all things.
Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
God is the one who grants and leads people to repent; faith ties into it, and faith is also a gift from God.
So we see yet again it is all of God. Pride 0. Humbling 1.
Don`t believe it is pride to believe the Word of God , through the Word of Jesus Christ who the Lord God gave these Words to Jesus to believe and to say ...... Using Pride to manipulate people to believe the strong arm ideas do not work here, Jesus said In Luke 13 : 2-5..... Suppose you that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans , because they suffered such things? I tell you ,NAY BUT EXCEPT YOU REPENT YOU WILL ALL LIKEWISE PERISH....Or those eighteen on who the tower in Siloam fell and slew them, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, NAY , BUT EXCEPT YOU REPENT YOU WILL ALL LIKEWISE PERISH.............``.Jesus was not proud to say these Words of wisdom that the Father God told him to say For God is not of the proud spirit......
I get what you are saying, but you are coming at this from the wrong angle. This ties into exactly what I was saying in the OP.
You take a verse about people perishing if they don't repent, and assume it is within you to repent yourself. You assume that even if some do perish, that they cannot be later restored. Yet God is the one who leads people to repent and even grants them to believe. That is humbling to realize it is all up to God. And if it is all up to God - surely He will save everyone, because that is His will and desire. This will happen even though some perish - all are resurrected. There will be a time of restoration of all things.
We know it happens because everyone swears allegiance to Him and praises His name, and ultimately God will be all in all. Its all God's doing on His timetable.
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God willgrant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth.
To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven.John 3:27
apart from me you can do nothing.John 15:5.
It never seizes to amaze me how we lay claim to anything,when Jesus Christ is made unto us all things.
It never ceases to amaze me that a verse pulled out of thin air seems to be all you uni's need. What about the context of 2 Timothy? What about verse 21 and 22. And in the verse you quoted, this is for the ones who are false teachers, hoping that God open their minds and TURNAWAY from their false teachings,,,which is what repentance means,,and then God CAN lead them into the Truth.
As far as your little quote job goes,,,,nothing to do with our discussion.
We lay claim THROUGH Jesus Christ,,not without. That is where your doctrine falls apart. You say it can happen without any pursuit,,unlike in verse 22 where it tells us to:
Flee also youthful lusts; but pursuerighteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
God is the one who grants and leads people to repent; faith ties into it, and faith is also a gift from God.
So we see yet again it is all of God. Pride 0. Humbling 1.
He also does this so we eventually can learn and experience what LOVE is.
Allow me to suggest that it appears that very few here have learned what love is. Jesus said that the greatest love is to lay one's life down for another. Now presumably, this applies not just to man, but to God also. That the greatest love God can express is to lay His life down for another. And that my friend is precisely what He did. Jesus laid His life down on behalf of the human race. The ultimate expression of love. Self-sacrifice. There is no greater love than this, proving that God is love. God, because He is love, does nothing except it comes from a heart of love. Everything He does is based on His love. Particularly His plan of salvation. Most especially His plan of salvation.
Now let me ask you a question. If God is determined to exercise His will over mankind regardless of man's thoughts or feelings on the matter,and regardless of whether or not you or I consider it to be beneficial to man, is that self-sacrificial love? Is imposing our will on another, say for example our spouse, regardless of whether or not it is beneficial or not, is that self sacrificial love? The answer is a resounding no. And God is incapable of any other kind of love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
He is doing all this for our benefit and growth. God needs nothing from us.
I am sure all the atheists, agnostics, wicca and new age people on this forum would be delighted to hear that regardless of their thoughts and feelings, regardless that right now the very last thing they desire is to be in the company of Christians hearing them singing praises to their Saviour, and regardless the fact that they have no desire to live righteous holy lives according to the commandments of God, you would have them doing those very things for all eternity, despite the fact that they would be hating every minute of it, and in their unrighteousness would not be able to abide the presence of God anyway. That my friend is precisely why they will not be there. Because they don't want to be and would hate it if they were. God, in His love, is merely giving to them what they truly want, and not forcing upon them that which they despise.
That said, God will not allow them to perish without giving them an opportunity to know Him. But ultimately, it is their decision. Self-sacrificial love on the part of God demands that be so.
Self will, which is exactly what universalists and hard core Calvinists promote, is in fact the opposite of love, the opposite of self-sacrifice, and precisely the spirit that God requires that we die from.
History is replete with all manner of gods and goddesses and sundry deities all fighting one another for pre-eminence in the minds and hearts of men. Raping, killing, and threatening one another to maintain power and influence. It was this pagan philosophy of self willed idolatry which Jesus came to denounce and reveal the true nature of the Creator God. Sad that so many Christians characterise God in the same way that pagans have been characterising their gods for millennia. A self-willed tyrant bent on having His own way. That is not love. It is spiritual rape.
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