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It says nothing about those who are not baptized. It only says that those who believe and are baptized are saved and that those who do not believe are condemned. Back then it was assumed that all believers were baptised, but the verse says nothing about those who believe and are not baptized.
If you lived in Texas you could say that "those who believe and wear a cowboy hat are saved, and those who do not believe are condemned". It says nothing about those believers who do not wear a cowboy hat.
If it said "those who do not believe and those who believe, but are not baptized are condemned" then it would make baptism a requirement.
are you saying that only those who DO believe would wear cowboy hats?
let's try something that applies to everyone... (not everyone understands the value of hats... :-) )
Okay... Those who wake up and grab their keys will drive to work.
Those who do not wake up will not make it to work.
there is an order to things. Hear. Believe. Repent. Confess. Baptism.
Why would you be baptized if you didn't first believe? ___ this is the question i need answered.
And if you didn't believe... if you were baptized... IF you were... why would you be doing it?
There is an order to things. Belief must come first. IF you don't have belief... you got nothing. No faith. No hope. No assurance.
So... would you agree that you must believe first? And if you do agree with that... would you agree that if you do not believe that it doesn't matter what you do... you will be condemned?
Also... IF the scripture read like this:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and the that believeth not and is baptized not shall be condemned...
would you agree that this would indicate that the order of what you do is unimportant? That you can do these things in the order of your choosing as long as you do them?
i look forward to your and everyone's responses to this.
Even if Jesus didn't say the exact words in Mark 16 and was added by the apostles it is safe to say he said it in other places and is what Jesus would say because it is spot on consistent with His theology that he created Himself!
John 21: 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.
but i believe he said it. cause here's the deal. no man wrote the bible. it is inspired by God. They are His words and His mind.
Usually, but not always, an external healing is a sign of internal healing (sins forgiven). Here is an example:
Luk 5:23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
would you please expand on this? I'm not sure i understand what you are trying to say. I think i do, but before i respond, i want to know for sure what you are saying.
would you please expand on this? I'm not sure i understand what you are trying to say. I think i do, but before i respond, i want to know for sure what you are saying.
thanks.
Often, outward healing of the body is a testimony (usually for those weak in faith) of the inward grace that has already been worked within.
Luk 5:20 And seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."
Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?"
Luk 5:22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
Luk 5:23 "Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins have been forgiven you,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'? Luk 5:24 "But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"--He said to the paralytic--"I say to you, rise, and take up your stretcher and go home."
Luk 5:25 And at once he rose up before them, and took up what he had been lying on, and went home, glorifying God.
The context of our discussion was the word "saved", past tense. If you'll notice above, the persons sins are forgiven (past tense) prior to the outward healing. The outward healing was simply a sign to the unbelievers, or those weak in faith, so that they would believe in the grace that had already taken place in the spirit.
Often, outward healing of the body is a testimony (usually for those weak in faith) of the inward grace that has already been worked within.
Luk 5:20 And seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."
Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?"
Luk 5:22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
Luk 5:23 "Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins have been forgiven you,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'? Luk 5:24 "But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"--He said to the paralytic--"I say to you, rise, and take up your stretcher and go home."
Luk 5:25 And at once he rose up before them, and took up what he had been lying on, and went home, glorifying God.
The context of our discussion was the word "saved", past tense. If you'll notice above, the persons sins are forgiven (past tense) prior to the outward healing. The outward healing was simply a sign to the unbelievers, or those weak in faith, so that they would believe in the grace that had already taken place in the spirit.
Think of baptism in the same way...
well, the outward healing was done not to prove that it was done... it was done to prove that Christ had the authority to do it in the first place.
i agree that he did one first ({forgiving sins}one where there was no outward evidence that it had been done)... and then he did another({healing} one that did have outward evidence that something had happened). But they were letting him down through the roof because everyone was there to be healed. so many that they couldn't even get through... everyone knew what was going on there... that's why they were there. For Healing. The pharisees saw an opportunity to question his authority to do the forgiving of sins. I know he forgave his sins, but this was to prove that he had the authority to do it. to prove who he was.
That's why Christ performed the miracles. to prove his authority. He healed people and there's no evidence he forgave them of anything, in other stories in the gospel. These people were there to see him heal and find an instance to accuse him of something. but when he speaks of forgiving sins, they think he's blaspheming. He didn't do this to prove to them (as unbelievers) that the lame man's sins were forgiven. they couldn't care less about that. He did it to prove his authority.
a miraculous healing and baptism are not the same. perhaps we need another instance of healing as a sign of an inward healing to go farther with this...
well, the outward healing was done not to prove that it was done... it was done to prove that Christ had the authority to do it in the first place.
i agree that he did one first ({forgiving sins}one where there was no outward evidence that it had been done)... and then he did another({healing} one that did have outward evidence that something had happened). But they were letting him down through the roof because everyone was there to be healed. so many that they couldn't even get through... everyone knew what was going on there... that's why they were there. For Healing. The pharisees saw an opportunity to question his authority to do the forgiving of sins. I know he forgave his sins, but this was to prove that he had the authority to do it. to prove who he was.
That's why Christ performed the miracles. to prove his authority. He healed people and there's no evidence he forgave them of anything, in other stories in the gospel. These people were there to see him heal and find an instance to accuse him of something. but when he speaks of forgiving sins, they think he's blaspheming. He didn't do this to prove to them (as unbelievers) that the lame man's sins were forgiven. they couldn't care less about that. He did it to prove his authority.
a miraculous healing and baptism are not the same. perhaps we need another instance of healing as a sign of an inward healing to go farther with this...
please write back. i look forward to this...
I don't think the emphasis here is on Jesus having to "prove" Himself, but rather that the works He does testify to the unbeliever that He is who He is:
Luk 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Jesus was also fulfilling prophecy:
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
The rest of your post I'm really not sure where you're going...
Regarding healing and sin. Jesus is the Good Physician. Jesus heals not only our symptoms, but also the underlying cause of those symptoms, sin itself:
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Are you trying to make the case that sins are not forgiven apart from being baptized?
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 06-27-2011 at 09:14 PM..
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Mark 16:15-16 DID JESUS SAY IT?
