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No that's not what it's saying, just like these other passages:
1 Timothy 2:3-5
King James Version (KJV)
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
New International Version (NIV)
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Colossians 1:19-20
New International Version (NIV)
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Now we know from what the Bible tells us that ALL will be reconciled, it says so above. The Bible also tells us that not everyone is going to be saved in this lifetime, does it not? So the logical explanation is that they will be saved in the next life since we know all things will be reconciled to God. It's just common sense.
Ilene, none of these Scriptures say that ALL people will be saved even without believing in this life. I don't know where you're getting that. You place the bolds, but leave the parts that say "through" or "in" Christ. Then you seem to be blatantly ignoring a scripture which you yourself have quoted. 1 Timothy 2:5 there is one mediator between God and man; the man Jesus Christ.
This answers your very own question which I have so repeatedly addressed, and one in which it seems will be almost impossible for you to agree with me. Plain and simple... the man Jesus Christ, is you and I. "Where two or three come in my name, there I am also." That means, that you and I make up the body of Christ. Christ himself said it, "that they may be in us, as you and I are one."
There will be a time when we no longer will be here... God's plan is that during this time everything must be subjected under our feet. Hence, the scripture "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord of all." You're not envisioning the plan completely. You have some of it, but not all.
When the end comes, and when death has been destroyed, there will no longer be the body of Christ, for even he himself will be put under God's feet. Where are those that never believed in the Son? Where are those that never believed in our Word? The bible never makes mention of them. We can't assume that the Scriptures are referring to ALL that don't believe in Christ. And neither will they not be able to do it in the after life, because they only get to see Christ in this life... not in the next! How do they see Christ in this life? They see Christ, because of us! We are the express image of God!
Oh it absolutely is my disagreement. I honestly don't believe that UR knows exactly how this Christ concept works exactly.
It is you who doesn't understand how it works. Since this thread is about "hell", why don't you tell us what it is exactly you believe about what happens to us when we die? I've already asked you this question and you didn't answer. What you believe is very unclear to all of us.
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Originally Posted by migol84
He reconciles ALL through Jesus Christ, the Church. You and I, the one's who have believed, make up the body of Christ. This is the true God and the eternal life. God bless.
If He reconciles ALL Migol, when exactly does that happen? You're not making any sense with your proclamations that He reconciles all through Jesus and then you turn around and say not all will be reconciled.....do you not see the inconsistency here? You want to keep arguing this but you don't make yourself clear about what it is YOU believe, you just want agreement with what you're saying when it doesn't make a lick of sense.
It is you who doesn't understand how it works. Since this thread is about "hell", why don't you tell us what it is exactly you believe about what happens to us when we die? I've already asked you this question and you didn't answer. What you believe is very unclear to all of us.
Ilene, good morning. Sorry that I haven't been able to address all of your questions. There's so many to answer. And I've actually answered this question you've provided here. It's somewhere I just don't know where.
Simply put, I don't know what hell is like. I have "ideas" and one of them is that I do not believe that God created hell, or death. I believe that hell was something that was falsely given to us ever since in the garden of eden. In fact, I think I explained this precisely to you.
If you remember in Hebrews it says, "Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
A saying comes to mind. What is it? Oh, yes "the only thing there is to fear, is fear itself." What Christ accomplished was fascinating because he enlightened us to show us that death or hell has no victory. That is why it is very crucial to "put on the mind which was also in Christ Jesus" if one wants to be saved from hell and death. Hell and death are not a literal place. Hell and death are realms that only Christ can save us from. If someone never puts on the mind that was also in Christ, he remains in a realm in which Adam put him through. God knows and understands that it is not the rest of our faults for his doing, so he wills that all men to be saved. And this he accomplishes through Christ.
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If He reconciles ALL Migol, when exactly does that happen? You're not making any sense with your proclamations that He reconciles all through Jesus and then you turn around and say not all will be reconciled.....do you not see the inconsistency here? You want to keep arguing this but you don't make yourself clear about what it is YOU believe, you just want agreement with what you're saying when it doesn't make a lick of sense.
To answer your question, it's so easy. One is reconciled when they come through Christ. How do they come through Christ? They come through Christ by us. We are the body of Christ. This is the true God and the eternal life.
Ilene, good morning. Sorry that I haven't been able to address all of your questions. There's so many to answer. And I've actually answered this question you've provided here. It's somewhere I just don't know where.
Simply put, I don't know what hell is like. I have "ideas" and one of them is that I do not believe that God created hell, or death. I believe that hell was something that was falsely given to us ever since in the garden of eden. In fact, I think I explained this precisely to you.
If you remember in Hebrews it says, "Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
A saying comes to mind. What is it? Oh, yes "the only thing there is to fear, is fear itself." What Christ accomplished was fascinating because he enlightened us to show us that death or hell has no victory. That is why it is very crucial to "put on the mind which was also in Christ Jesus" if one wants to be saved from hell and death. Hell and death are not a literal place. Hell and death are realms that only Christ can save us from. If someone never puts on the mind that was also in Christ, he remains in a realm in which Adam put him through. God knows and understands that it is not the rest of our faults for his doing, so he wills that all men to be saved. And this he accomplishes through Christ.
And good morning to you Migol!! Thanks for that, now I sort of understand where you're coming from. Yes, death and hell have no victory but you must believe Revelation when it says death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire? Where in the Bible does it say that hell and death are "realms"? That would still make them literal places. UR's don't believe in eternal torment either but make no mistake, there will be God's corrective spiritual "fire" for those who are unbelievers.
So you're saying that unless a person accepts Christ in this life then there's no hope for them to come out of these "realms" for all of eternity? I still don't understand where you're coming from on that one, especially since your last statement here sounds like you believe like UR does, that there is hope after death to escape the "realm" if one believes in Christ. Is that what you're saying?
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To answer your question, it's so easy. One is reconciled when they come through Christ. How do they come through Christ? They come through Christ by us. We are the body of Christ. This is the true God and the eternal life.
Nope, still not answering the question. This is a broad statement and does not answer what I asked. If ALL people, past present and future, ALL means ALL, are to be reconciled to God (proven by the scriptures I quoted before) then when exactly does that take place?
We already know from what the Bible says that not ALL are going to accept Jesus in this life Migol, (and I'm repeating myself here because you're still not addressing what I'm saying) and if that's the case then when does God reconcile ALL to Himself if not in this life? Has to be the next one, right? It's a real simple concept and not hard to grasp if you really think about it.
Riiiigghht... Do I really have to lay out again why calling this a "choice" is logically absurd beyond all known definitions of absurdity or insanely unfair beyond all known standards of fairness?..or sadistic beyond all known forms of sadism? I'll lay it out again, just give me the word
I have God's Word that explains free will and why Jesus came to save us from eternal separation from Him. It is choice every person makes, to accept or reject Jesus.
This is only my theory. So take it with a grain of salt. It's biblically based, but disregard it as you please. At least I know that I am basing my faith in the scriptures and that I don't make any judgments at all of what it is in the after life.
Ecclesiastes writes about God giving humanity a task to question its existence. Indeed, if you look around, you'll find that religion and the existential questions have always there throughout our history. Ecclesiastes also says that God has place eternity in our hearts, except that we can't fathom God's plan so it still remains a mystery.
Paul then reiterates this same notion in Romans but says it differently. He says, "since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. "
Even to this very day people have some form of deity and even those without a belief in a deity or deism, still in fact are faced with the questions of their own existence.
It is my belief that reading what Ecclesiastes says, "such difficult task God has given men to do!" it is man's duty to find and seek the purpose for their own being here. Paul even says it that God has made it plain to them... in other words, man just simply has that ability to question life's meaning. It's just part of our subconsciousness to ask that.
I honestly believe that if every person in the world will feed their desire to answer these questions, it will lead them eventually to Christ.
But that's just me.
Well for me I agree that there is more to it than believe and be "saved" and go to "heaven" and watch the unbelievers suffer in the lake of fire "hell", we are each made flesh and spirit (the breath of God is in each person coming into the world)
We will reap what we sow -- to the flesh (destruction) and to the spirit (life)
You appear to be contradicting yourself - you have said you need to confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord to be saved ........ then now you are saying for some it is ok to just question the meaning of life ......
I too had these contradictory thoughts. it is where you start questioning what you have been told against what you read in scripture and things don't quite gel.......
Would you like me to start another thread on sin, death, judgment, resurrection and life? I will copy your previous post over there.
I think we both agree that the end of unbelievers is not in an eternal lake of fire, and this thread is more for the UR/ET debate......
What kind of punishment are you talking about? A slap in the wrists, and then to heaven? You are confirming what I am saying.
Why do you think anything other than an eternal punishment would be a "slap on the wrist"?
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Also, I just explained what I mean by 'unbeliever', so it is very much possible for an unsaved person to believe in UR, and they will die in their unbelief. According to UR unbelievers/unsaved do not need to believe in anything, since all men will eventually be saved.
I'm trying to explain this to you Finn. Your statement here is wrong. According to UR, ultimately all will believe and follow Christ. That is what UR is. That is what you fail to mention every single time, that is how you are misrepresenting UR - it is dishonest.
God will have all men to be saved.
There is only one mediator - Christ.
All will be saved through Christ.
All will be made alive in Christ.
You are being very confusing when you use the word "all" and don't really mean all.
Scripture describes when this will all happen (repeated from post 601):
Isaiah 45
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Romans 14:10 For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
Phil 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Rev 15:4 “Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy;
For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU,
FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.”
Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
Luke 3:6 And all people will see God’s salvation.
Do you see what these scriptures are saying? Is this not a picture of a time, when all people, all families, all nations, every creature, will come to Christ and worship, praise, bow, confess, even swear allegiance - and thus be "in Christ"?
When do you think all of the above happens? The point is not really when it happens, but that it happens at all. Every single individual does come to Christ at some point in human history, for that is what these verses are saying.
Its good news for all people, just like the angels foretold:
Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people
Good news! If a single soul is lost, it is not good news for all people.
Why do you think anything other than an eternal punishment would be a "slap on the wrist"?
Then what is it? Can you explain the extent of it, and support it with scripture. Also, please support the after-death salvation process with scripture.
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I'm trying to explain this to you Finn. Your statement here is wrong. According to UR, ultimately all will believe and follow Christ. That is what UR is. That is what you fail to mention every single time, that is how you are misrepresenting UR - it is dishonest.
You can repeat your accusation as often as you like, but there has been no misrepresentation whatsoever. You are not happy with what ur teaching boils down to, so you try to hide it and brush it aside every time someone brings it up.
It boils down to people feeling they do not need Christ in this life, because salvation is guaranteed to everyone whether or not they believe in Christ in this life.
1Jn"But we know that the Son of God HAS come and has given us an understanding so that we may know him that is true, and WE ARE IN HIM that is true. Even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the eternal life."
To answer your question, Christ has already come and he is in Us, we are the body of Christ.
"But we have one mediator between God and man, the MAN Jesus Christ."
The passage you read, you are misinterpreting it as every single person alive when that is not so. He is specifically telling us who is the ALL that will be subjected under Him, or rather US, the Church.
Notice that he says, "through their message." And then he says why he wants the rest of the world to believe "through their message".... so that "all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you." And again, he redirects to those who've already believed, "May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
You have elevated the Church above Christ and God. The message is NOT your Church's message. It is Christ's Gospel, period.
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I mean, come one... I'm reading this and getting the chilly willys. Aren't you? Do you not see the power of this word? For the world to come to know Christ, they have to come to US, to those who have already believed. Hence, the Scripture that I have already provided at the beginning of this long post. "But we know that the Son of God has come and has given US an UNDERSTANDING." Who has the understanding? US! Who is US??? The Church! Read further, "so that we may know Him that is True. AND WE are IN HIM that is true, even IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND THE ETERNAL LIFE." Who is the eternal God and the eternal life? You and I!!!!!!!!! Ain't that good news my friend?
So now.... what about the rest of the world? Well, the rest of the world has to believe in our Word just as the Lord said it. This has to be done and that is why Paul says of this very truth that we believe in.... "I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed TO THE LORD'S PEOPLE. 27 To them (not the world, but to the Lord's people, the one's who have believed) God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ.
How then can one become fully mature long after being dead? When you quote me 1 Cor 15 it is reassuring this very thing that I am telling you, that God has established the Son, which is again the body of Christ (or you and I, who have believed) and has given it an authority so that when it has become fully mature he then will subject everything under him. He will subject all authority, dominion and power under His Son, which is that perfect man I keep yappin about, Jesus Christ, the head of the body, the Church, US. As the Lord said, "so that they may be one in us, as you and I are one." We are that perfect man, the ones who have received and believed in that Word. When one dies, if they did not believe in our word, how then will they come to know God? For certainly they must believe inour Word, because the Lord said it himself. We, the Church, are the mediator between God and man. We are that body of Christ. It's evident that there is a clear purpose for us here on earth. This is why Christ prayed that the world may believe in our Word so that they may be one in us. But it is not saying that the world are already one in us. And it is not implying that they are subject, nor they will be subject.
Not at all. Keep in mind, that we are the Son, we are that mediator. And God's plan is to subject everything under that mediator. That is what Paul is referring to in 1 Cor. 15.... they have to come through Christ. Plain and simple. No ifs ands or buts. The all part simply means that it is not limited to nobody. And if they die without knowing Christ, they will no longer meet him.... because we are Christ. This is the true God and the eternal life. Do you understand where I'm getting at?
Unfortunately this long post (which I have excerpted for emphasis) explains your blasphemous beliefs quite clearly. They definitely give me the "chilly willys" . . . since they reveal an egotistical tickling of our human ears. This has to be the most perfect description of what I call CHURCHianity and NOT CHRISTianity. You refer to "our Word" and claim that the Church is the Perfect Man, Christ, the true God, eternal life, the Son, the mediator, etc. This is truly dangerous thinking. You keep referring to death as the End . . . when it is our REBIRTH as Spirit . . . not the end. Of course we can mature AFTER being BORN again as Spirit. that is what we do AFTER birth.
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It is you who doesn't understand how it works. Since this thread is about "hell", why don't you tell us what it is exactly you believe about what happens to us when we die? I've already asked you this question and you didn't answer. What you believe is very unclear to all of us.
