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Revelation 19:4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, "Amen. Hallelujah!"
In addition to the misunderstanding/idolatry that the Bible is "God Himself on paper," there is a second problem that this thread seems to ignore:
the reader!
You can write about a "bird," but depending on the reader, the subject may be interpreted by the reader as referring to a dove, a dodo, a chicken or a Pterodactylus. All of these creatures have/had wings, but they are all very different!
So even if the Bible (or any other book) was indeed "God's word to man," it would also be necessary for God to clarify His meaning every time that someone read it! (which obviously doesn't happen, seeing how we have thousands of denominations within Christendom today! Wikipedia cites 38,000 as of now: List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )
This is why we have Bibles such as the "Amplified Bible," which try to make the scriptures say only one specific thing, and for all readers to see in the same way. But it is impossible. Only God can make one man to see things the same way as another man. Through the Spirit. Not through some new translation made by men.
This is why "the letter kills." By focusing on the Bible (the footprints) we miss God and Christ the Anointing (the feet).
"The Spirit gives life." The letter (the Bible) kills.
Just a thought.
Blessings,
brian
Last edited by ahigherway; 06-17-2011 at 03:58 AM..
In addition to the misunderstanding/idolatry that the Bible is "God Himself on paper,...."
Wow! What that's the mother of strawman arguments couched in seemingly innocent hyperbole!
Quote:
seeing how we have thousands of denominations within Christendom today!
You mean that the foretold apostasy confounds you? It doesn't confound me. I see it for what it is-a deviation.
BTW
There are millions of men who see things in identical ways and didn't need God to reach a consensus. Perhaps you should discard that dubious premise.
Let me start by saying that all scripture is inspired by God but not everything in our bibles is scripture.
A few examples:
Jeremiah 8:8 speaks about the lying pen of the scribes adding to the Law of Moses.
Written in the book of the Law of Moses we read
Numbers 30:2
2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
Deuteronomy 23:21
21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.
However, according to Jesus we are not to swear at all, but let our communication be yea, yea, or nay, nay. Matthew 5:33-37
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all;neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Jesus’ words are a total contradiction to what is written in Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21.
A couple of things to take note of in what Jesus says in Matthew 5:33-37.
First, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.
Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead ofit is writtento show us that the law of forswearing comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.
Secondly, some people have tried to tell me that this is only to show the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. However, if this is the case then God changed His mind about what He wants from us and if God changes His mind about what He wants from us then His word is not steadfast. And if Gods word is not steadfast what assurances do we have that God will not change His mind again and again?
Thirdly, Jesus says whatsoever is more then yea and nay cometh from EVIL. So if forswearing ourselves came from God as Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21 suggest then Jesus would be saying God is EVIL or what God speaks is EVIL.
So we are left with a choice, we can either believe God changes His mind concerning what He wants from us, making His word not steadfast, or we can believe what Jeremiah stated in 8:8 that the lying pen of the Scribes have changed Gods laws into lies.
We see this same lying pen of the Scribe in the horrendous eye for an eye doctrine that the Scribes attributed to Moses in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21
Exodus 21:22-24
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Leviticus 24:19-20
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. Deuteronomy 19:21
21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
But Jesus says that ye resist not evil.
Matthew 5:38-42
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Jesus’ words again are in total contradiction to what is written in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21.
Take note of what Jesus says in Matthew 5:38-42
Again, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.
And again, Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead ofit is writtento show us that the law of an eye for an eye comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.
Matthew 5:43-45
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Take note that again Jesus uses the same manner of speech, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said. Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Oh, oh Houston we have a problem.
Nowhere is it stated in the bible that we are to hate our enemy.
Did Jesus make a blunder when he said you have heard that it hath been said?
NO, absolutely, NO, Jesus did not blunder when he said this.
So what is going on?
Everything else Jesus referenced in these sets of scripture is found written somewhere in the Law of Moses being an addition by the lying pen of the Scribes, but attributed to Moses. So why do we not find the term hate thine enemy also recorded?
Most probably, because the scribes deleted it from their writings after Jesus said love your enemies.
No matter how one looks at it, forswearing, eye for an eye and hate thine enemy are a total contradiction to what Jesus tells us.
We read in Revelation a warning to anyone who would add to or take away from the prophesy of the book of Revelation. Now if God saw fit to put this warning in that book is it not obvious He knew that people would be tempted to do just that?
Just because God does not want people to do something does not mean people won’t do it.
And history proves that man has tampered with the scripture.
Witness 1Jn.5:7
Witness Mk.16:9-20
Neither of which are in the oldest and best manuscripts.
Both are an interpolation; added to scripture at a later date.
Some might not like it but those are the FACTS.
Some people have told me that the bible is the word of God and everything in it is of Him and by Him and that He most surely could have protected it all through history.
First let me say there is only ONE WORD OF GOD, that being Jesus Christ and everything that proceeds from His mouth. Therefore the bible cannot be the word of God as history and scripture shows man has tampered with it, adding to it and taking away from it.
Are you getting the picture? Not everything in our bibles is inspired by God or scripture. Man has tampered so much with the scriptures, adding and taking away from them, that the bibles today bring in much confusion. My suggestion to you and everyone else is to take every thought (especially the thoughts recorded in the bible) captive to Christ and see what He says about them.
Wow! What that's the mother of strawman arguments couched in seemingly innocent hyperbole!
You mean that the foretold apostasy confounds you? It doesn't confound me. I see it for what it is-a deviation.
BTW
There are millions of men who see things in identical ways and didn't need God to reach a consensus. Perhaps you should discard that dubious premise.
Aren't you saying that God became words on paper? That seems to be the consensus here (indeed, without God)..
No, it doesn't confound me at all. Actually, it's like water off a duck's back.
Are you saying that I should discard my "dubious premise" because men are able to reach a consensus without God??? The body of Christ should be united, not divided. I think you have misread my post..
In addition to the misunderstanding/idolatry that the Bible is "God Himself on paper," there is a second problem that this thread seems to ignore:
the reader!
You can write about a "bird," but depending on the reader, the subject may be interpreted by the reader as referring to a dove, a dodo, a chicken or a Pterodactylus. All of these creatures have/had wings, but they are all very different!
So even if the Bible (or any other book) was indeed "God's word to man," it would also be necessary for God to clarify His meaning every time that someone read it! (which obviously doesn't happen, seeing how we have thousands of denominations within Christendom today! Wikipedia cites 38,000 as of now: List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )
This is why we have Bibles such as the "Amplified Bible," which try to make the scriptures say only one specific thing, and for all readers to see in the same way. But it is impossible. Only God can make one man to see things the same way as another man. Through the Spirit. Not through some new translation made by men.
This is why "the letter kills." By focusing on the Bible (the footprints) we miss God and Christ the Anointing (the feet).
"The Spirit gives life." The letter (the Bible) kills.
Just a thought.
Blessings,
brian
A wonderful thought, brian. The problem with the OP is that it presumes an ALL-or-Nothing answer and ignores the command to properly DIVIDE the scriptures. There is ONLY ONE Word of GOD . . . Jesus Christ and ONLY HIS Words can be considered the Word of God. But there have been many God inspired scriptures interpreted and recorded by MEN for our instruction and to give us hope. As long as we properly divide them from THE WORD OF GOD JESUS CHRIST and HIS WORDS . . . we will not be confused.
Ahigherway wrote : "In addition to the misunderstanding/idolatry that the Bible is "God Himself on paper,...
Only God can make one man to see things the same way as another man. Through the Spirit. Not through some new translation made by men. - brian
Hi Brian : Like MysticPhD, I Like your thinking on these two very specific points are wonderful and correct insights. I do believe that you are correct that individuals tend psychologically project onto material things, qualities that inanimate objects do not and cannot have. Bibles in their various versions are historical records. The history in them regards profoundly sacred things, but the text itself is still a historical record; a representation of past events. I believe that your observation that men must have the spirit of God with them to have correct insight and understanding is profound and completely true.
Quote:
Pneuma said : First let me say there is only ONE WORD OF GOD, that being Jesus Christ and everything that proceeds from His mouth.
I think this also is an important point, if a word comes from God the Father himself or through Jesus as the son of God (“the“Word” was a very, very, common Judao-Christian Euphamism for the son ). If the Father or the Son speak a word or write word, etc, those are the direct words of God. However, if a prophet writes the word of God to him, then those are the words of a prophet, DESCRIBING the word of God to the prophet, rather than the text being the original, actual word of God.
Well, the oped asks a question-correct? The question is whether I believe that the Bible is the Word of God-right? I respond by saying that yes, I do believe that the Bible is the Word of God. If the question had been "Why do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?" then I would have given the reasons. But since that was NOT the question-giving the reasons would have been overkill and off topic.
So within the context of the oped question the scriptures posted as part of the reply should not be understood as an attempt to prove WHY I believe that the Bible is the Word of God. They should be viewed as simply an expression of my belief as expressed in the pages of the Bible itself. In short, you are misunderstanding the purpose for the biblical quotes by attributing more to them than was intended.
I am merely trying to show Christians that when asked for proof of the Bible being the word of God, you cant use the very thing being questioned as being proof. You need evidence from an external, objective source. For that matter, you first have to prove the existence of God before you can prove that the Bible is his/hers/its word
In addition to the misunderstanding/idolatry that the Bible is "God Himself on paper," there is a second problem that this thread seems to ignore:
the reader!
You can write about a "bird," but depending on the reader, the subject may be interpreted by the reader as referring to a dove, a dodo, a chicken or a Pterodactylus. All of these creatures have/had wings, but they are all very different!
So even if the Bible (or any other book) was indeed "God's word to man," it would also be necessary for God to clarify His meaning every time that someone read it! (which obviously doesn't happen, seeing how we have thousands of denominations within Christendom today! Wikipedia cites 38,000 as of now: List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )
This is why we have Bibles such as the "Amplified Bible," which try to make the scriptures say only one specific thing, and for all readers to see in the same way. But it is impossible. Only God can make one man to see things the same way as another man. Through the Spirit. Not through some new translation made by men.
This is why "the letter kills." By focusing on the Bible (the footprints) we miss God and Christ the Anointing (the feet).
"The Spirit gives life." The letter (the Bible) kills.
Just a thought.
Blessings,
brian
The bible doesn't kill, the letter of the law... law kills... but the new covenant is spirit and gives life.
The new covenant is Jesus Christ, he came to FULFILL THE LAW. The law killed fallen man for fallen man could not keep the law. No one could keep the law.
Through Christ we are now saved by grace ( no longer in a fallen state) because the Holy Spirit now endwells in us. The spirit gives life.
Let me start by saying that all scripture is inspired by God but not everything in our bibles is scripture.
A few examples:
Jeremiah 8:8 speaks about the lying pen of the scribes adding to the Law of Moses.
Written in the book of the Law of Moses we read
Numbers 30:2
2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
Deuteronomy 23:21
21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.
However, according to Jesus we are not to swear at all, but let our communication be yea, yea, or nay, nay. Matthew 5:33-37
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all;neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Jesus’ words are a total contradiction to what is written in Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21.
A couple of things to take note of in what Jesus says in Matthew 5:33-37.
First, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.
Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead ofit is writtento show us that the law of forswearing comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.
Secondly, some people have tried to tell me that this is only to show the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. However, if this is the case then God changed His mind about what He wants from us and if God changes His mind about what He wants from us then His word is not steadfast. And if Gods word is not steadfast what assurances do we have that God will not change His mind again and again?
Thirdly, Jesus says whatsoever is more then yea and nay cometh from EVIL. So if forswearing ourselves came from God as Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21 suggest then Jesus would be saying God is EVIL or what God speaks is EVIL.
So we are left with a choice, we can either believe God changes His mind concerning what He wants from us, making His word not steadfast, or we can believe what Jeremiah stated in 8:8 that the lying pen of the Scribes have changed Gods laws into lies.
We see this same lying pen of the Scribe in the horrendous eye for an eye doctrine that the Scribes attributed to Moses in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21
Exodus 21:22-24
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Leviticus 24:19-20
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. Deuteronomy 19:21
21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
But Jesus says that ye resist not evil.
Matthew 5:38-42
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Jesus’ words again are in total contradiction to what is written in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21.
Take note of what Jesus says in Matthew 5:38-42
Again, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.
And again, Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead ofit is writtento show us that the law of an eye for an eye comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.
Matthew 5:43-45
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Take note that again Jesus uses the same manner of speech, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said. Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Oh, oh Houston we have a problem.
Nowhere is it stated in the bible that we are to hate our enemy.
Did Jesus make a blunder when he said you have heard that it hath been said?
NO, absolutely, NO, Jesus did not blunder when he said this.
So what is going on?
Everything else Jesus referenced in these sets of scripture is found written somewhere in the Law of Moses being an addition by the lying pen of the Scribes, but attributed to Moses. So why do we not find the term hate thine enemy also recorded?
Most probably, because the scribes deleted it from their writings after Jesus said love your enemies.
No matter how one looks at it, forswearing, eye for an eye and hate thine enemy are a total contradiction to what Jesus tells us.
We read in Revelation a warning to anyone who would add to or take away from the prophesy of the book of Revelation. Now if God saw fit to put this warning in that book is it not obvious He knew that people would be tempted to do just that?
Just because God does not want people to do something does not mean people won’t do it.
And history proves that man has tampered with the scripture.
Witness 1Jn.5:7
Witness Mk.16:9-20
Neither of which are in the oldest and best manuscripts.
Both are an interpolation; added to scripture at a later date.
Some might not like it but those are the FACTS.
Some people have told me that the bible is the word of God and everything in it is of Him and by Him and that He most surely could have protected it all through history.
First let me say there is only ONE WORD OF GOD, that being Jesus Christ and everything that proceeds from His mouth. Therefore the bible cannot be the word of God as history and scripture shows man has tampered with it, adding to it and taking away from it.
Are you getting the picture? Not everything in our bibles is inspired by God or scripture. Man has tampered so much with the scriptures, adding and taking away from them, that the bibles today bring in much confusion. My suggestion to you and everyone else is to take every thought (especially the thoughts recorded in the bible) captive to Christ and see what He says about them.
God does not give us a spirit of confusion. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Jesus did not reject the old testament. He added grace to the law. Law was saying guilty! Guilty! It could do no other. Law was law.
If you do not accept the Bible as God's word whose word will you accept as God's?
Your faith in the word is weak. I hope your faith does not fall away as many will in the last days. Ask for more insight and discernment of what the difference of Law and Grace.
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