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I suppose you'd have called Jesus an atheist too when he told the pharisees:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
A verse so clear, even a child could understand it...but, alas, the majority of Christianity looks everywhere else except WITHIN THEMSELVES...it is truly sad.
A verse so clear, even a child could understand it...but, alas, the majority of Christianity looks everywhere else except WITHIN THEMSELVES...it is truly sad.
Yes it is clear in the scriptures, however I don't think anyone can grasp the truth of what Jesus said until first born of the Spirit:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
IOW, it's an objective truth that can not be subjectively understood and realized until born of the Spirit.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-04-2011 at 09:49 AM..
If you can prove to me that eternal life is going to a place called heaven, then I will accept your proof.
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
When and where are we to know him ?
If you are denying that Heaven exists, and if you are denying that the believer goes to heaven at physical death, then simply refer to the following Scriptures.
2 Cor 12:2 (Paul states the following) 'I know a man in Christ (referring to himself) who fourteen years ago, whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows, such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3] And I know how such a man, whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows, 4] was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
Since the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, the believer goes to the third heaven which Paul identified as Paradise. Before the resurrected Christ ascended into heaven, the believer went to Paradise which at that time was a compartment of Hades. Luke 23:43 'And He (Jesus) said to him, ''Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'
Paul said in 2 Cor 5:8 '...absent from the body (so he was not referring to the resurrection) and to be at home with the Lord. (Remember that he had previously been caught up into heaven in the spirit).
In Phil 1:21-23 Paul exresses his desire to depart and be with the Lord as opposed to remaining in the flesh. So again he was not referring to the resurrection of the body, but to immediately being with Christ at the moment of physical death.
See those who have died, in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11; 7:9-10; 20:4.
See the church in heaven in Revelation 19:7-8.
The church returns to the earth with Christ at the end of the tribulation. The church age believer is part of the armies of heaven mentioned in Revelation 19:14.
Now, the believer has eternal life at the very moment he places his faith in Christ for salvation. Eternal life expresses both quality of life and quantity of life - eternal, with a view towards the endless eternal future.
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
When and where are we to know him ?
If we look at salvation from the POV of God's mercy and grace, then I'd answer your question above like this:
We will know Him when He draws us individually to Himself. Not before then. And the place where we meet Him is what He decides, not us.
Man really can't do a hill of beans except wait. -And I suppose if we learned to wait, that would be a great start already! Just as the bride waits for her bridegroom.
If you are denying that Heaven exists, and if you are denying that the believer goes to heaven at physical death, then simply refer to the following Scriptures.
2 Cor 12:2 (Paul states the following) 'I know a man in Christ (referring to himself) who fourteen years ago, whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows, such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3] And I know how such a man, whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows, 4] was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
Since the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, the believer goes to the third heaven which Paul identified as Paradise. Before the resurrected Christ ascended into heaven, the believer went to Paradise which at that time was a compartment of Hades. Luke 23:43 'And He (Jesus) said to him, ''Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'
Paul said in 2 Cor 5:8 '...absent from the body (so he was not referring to the resurrection) and to be at home with the Lord. (Remember that he had previously been caught up into heaven in the spirit).
In Phil 1:21-23 Paul exresses his desire to depart and be with the Lord as opposed to remaining in the flesh. So again he was not referring to the resurrection of the body, but to immediately being with Christ at the moment of physical death.
See those who have died, in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11; 7:9-10; 20:4.
See the church in heaven in Revelation 19:7-8.
The church returns to the earth with Christ at the end of the tribulation. The church age believer is part of the armies of heaven mentioned in Revelation 19:14.
Now, the believer has eternal life at the very moment he places his faith in Christ for salvation. Eternal life expresses both quality of life and quantity of life - eternal, with a view towards the endless eternal future.
Not once said it didn't exist. The OP is nothing to do with existence of Heaven.
Not once said it didn't exist. The OP is nothing to do with existence of Heaven.
The title of the thread, Where does this belief come from that being saved is about going to heaven ?', and your comment in post #5, 'If you can prove to me that eternal life is going to a place called heaven, then I will accept your proof.', could easily be taken as otherwise. The believer, having eternal life, goes to heaven when he dies.
The title of the thread, Where does this belief come from that being saved is about going to heaven ?', and your comment in post #5, 'If you can prove to me that eternal life is going to a place called heaven, then I will accept your proof.', could easily be taken as otherwise. The believer, having eternal life, goes to heaven when he dies.
According to Heb 9:28...that can certainly be refuted for Jesus allegedly does not bring salvation until he actually returns. According to this verse, you only have a promise...not actual salvation, hence, no eternal life as you've been taught.
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Just as the bride waits for her bridegroom.
