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Where does Romans 8:7 teach that we are totally incapable of choosing God? Where does it say we have no choice between the desires of the flesh and the desires of the Spirit?
Rom 8:7 That is why the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God. For it refuses to submit to the authority of God's law because it is powerless to do so.
So, where does one get the power to choose Hawyaw?...
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Originally Posted by katiemygirl
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
Katie
The author is making a comparison between those that are spiritually dead and those that are spiritually alive...Indicating the difference between us and them, what we were before and what we are now....
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Now consider for a moment, surely Jesus didn't come along and bend the disciples arms behind their backs and cause them to choose Him. But through their experiences in life and through His message to them, God had given them over to be persuaded by Jesus. That persuaded spirit that was in them was put their by God. So that their choosing Him was God's work, not their own.
Genesis 2:17 "for when you eat of it you will surely die.”
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death"
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
again there is more than just one verse:
God chooses some for salvation
Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30
And those he predestined,he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
notice how many "he's there is vs. no mention of "we" ( for those who believe in human doing something to contribute to salvation )
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
]
Just out of curiousity, When and how did you come to this conclusion of Predestination?...
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Originally Posted by twin.spin
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Originally Posted by twin.spin
What verse that say God chooses some for eternal destruction.
A: there is none.
Only human reason concludes that if God presdestines to salvation then the other also occures.
Such human conclusion is going against this:
“Do not gobeyondwhatiswritten.” 1 Corinthians 4:6
I don't think it is...I would point out the events of Pharoah...In light of that, one can come to this conclusion...One is not going beyond what is written when one asks, 'If Hawyaw has Elected certain ones to Salvation, what happens to the ones that He does not Elect to Salvation?'...If Hawyaw stated, 'Because of their unbelief, they will not enter into My Rest'...So, If they do not enter into His Rest, where do they go?...Further more, If one is saved by Faith, what becomes of one who has no Faith?...If the sheep enter in to Eternal Life, what becomes of the goats?...Hawyaw does not say that the un-elected are saved, so, what becomes of them?...When Jeshua says, there are those that will inherit eternal life and those that will receive eternal punishment...What is it that gives us eternal life and what is it that gives eternal punishment?...Does faith give us Salvation?...If so, wouldn't non-Faith gives us the opposite?...Belief=Rest, Unbelief=No rest...The Scriptures are there to balance itself out...Hawyaw is the One who gives us Logic and Reason...Our Logic and reason is dictated by the way Hawyaw has deaigned the Universe...It is not the sun that causes things to be the color they are but the molecular structure of the things and the prism of the atmosphere and it's molecular structure that dictate how we see colors of various things, in essence, nothing has color...And this is the way in which Hawyaw had decided to structure the Universe and we cannot operate outside of this scope...So is Logic and Reason to be seen through the prism of reality...
For me personally, I did not understand what God was telling us here (what your post is stating).... until I was able to reconcile Acts 2:38 with all the other verses concerning baptism. Baptism does NOT save us. We are saved only by His Holy Spirit. We do not receive the Holy Spirit when someone baptizes us. GOD gives The Holy Spirit to us, not man.
I would like to point out that it was AFTER the baptism AND the Apostles 'laid hands' on them AND THEN they received the Gift of the Holy Spirit...NOT the baptism of the Holy Spirit which happens at the moment of Regeneration, which is BY the Holy Spirit...The Holy Spirit baptizes you into the body of Jeshua...
Let's go with what you believe. Since you believe that we choose God and it is of ourselves then that obviously means one cannot be saved unless they themselves choose to believe - correct?
Where in the world in my reply did you get that assessment???...No Way!...Have you been reading my posts?...I am extremely pro-Hawyaw on this point...He gives regeneration, He gives repentance, He gives Faith, He gives perseverence, He gives Salvation...Wow...Where did you ever get the idea that I would take even the minutest bit of credit for my Salvation?...
Where in the world in my reply did you get that assessment???...No Way!...Have you been reading my posts?...I am extremely pro-Hawyaw on this point...He gives regeneration, He gives repentance, He gives Faith, He gives perseverence, He gives Salvation...Wow...Where did you ever get the idea that I would take even the minutest bit of credit for my Salvation?...
Yes, I was agreeing on your correct understanding of God being sovereign.
God is completely sovereign and that it's also within his sovereignty to reject those who rejects Him.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Before we are ever Spiritually minded we are carnal minded. Here is the part that people don't get. That if I choose God then while I might be doing the choosing that CHOICE and the power/motivation to make that choice is from God. More specifically it is copyrighted by Jesus Christ. So if I choose God it is not I choosing God but Christ in me making the Choice for me.
If I should say it is MY Choice to do such a good work then I have ROBBED my Lord of His due Glory.
Any GOOD thing we do has a copyright on it. Remember that. We cannot do ANYTHING Good. Even though we do a good thing it is now our work to OWN but His.
So when I make a GOOD Choice it is not me that has done so but Him in me that has done so.
Nice post. We hadn't gotten to post Romans 8:7 yet. Thank you for that
Genesis 2:17 "for when you eat of it you will surely die.”
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death"
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
again there is more than just one verse:
God chooses some for salvation
Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30
And those he predestined,he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
notice how many "he's there is vs. no mention of "we" ( for those who believe in human doing something to contribute to salvation )
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
What verse that say God chooses some for eternal destruction.
A: there is none.
Only human reason concludes that if God presdestines to salvation then the other also occures.
Such human conclusion is going against this:
“Do not gobeyondwhatiswritten.” 1 Corinthians 4:6
Hi Twin,
Thank you for responding to my post and for providing scriptures to answer the two questions I asked. I appreciate the time you took to do that. Let's take a look at those scriptures you cited to see if they prove that we inherit Adam's sin, and whether God chooses some for salvation.
Gen. 2:17 - This verse does not say we inherit Adam's sin. It simply says that when they would eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would die.
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Romans 6:23 - This verse simply says that if we sin, we die. Nothing about inheriting Adam's sin here.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life inChrist Jesus our Lord.
Romans 5:12 - I see nothing here about inheriting Adam's sin. It tells us that sin entered the world through one man. Death came through sin. I believe this is speaking of spiritual death. I say that because of Romans 6:23. The wages of sin is death (spiritual). In this way death came to all people, because all sinned. However, I do not believe this is addressing babies. Too many scriptures refute that doctrine.
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
So the question becomes, do babies sin? What is sin? Sin is what people DO. The following passages say a person becomes guilty of sin when he himself commits or practices wrong.
Contrast 1 John 3:4 to original sin, which says man is a sinner by inheritance before he does anything himself.
1 John 3:4 - Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. Sin is defined as something a person commits, not something he inherits.
In order for a baby to sin, he/she must be able to know right from wrong. It is obvious from Deureronomy 1:39 that children to not know how to tell good from bad.
"And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad--they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it."
Ezekiel 18:20 tells us that the one who sins is the one who dies. It also tells us that the child will not share the guilt of the father.
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Psalm 51:5 - This verse is the basis from which the doctrine of Original Sin was constructed, a doctrine which Jesus Christ flatly contradicted, saying, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, for unto such belongs the kingdom of God."(Mark 10:14).
The verse does not state that David was born guilty. It says nothing about Adam, Adam's sin, or that David inherited the guilt of Adam's sin. It describes the guilt of his mother. His mother is the one who was guilty of sin and iniquity when she conceived him and brought him forth.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me" (NASV)
Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people.
Eternal destiny is determined by our conduct (not by what we inherit), and it is determined individually. Each person is held accountable for what he did, not for what his ancestors or Adam did.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things donein the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Each will be judged for what He did in the body. This is true of all. Only Adam will be judged for what Adam did. The rest of us will be judged for what we did.
************************************************** **************************** 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will
The question becomes this. Who are the predestined?Who are the chosen? A careful reading of Ephesians will tell you that they are those who are "in Christ."
Nowhere in Ephesians or anywhere in the Bible does it say that God chooses some for salvation and not others.
Paul wrote to the Ephesians who were "in Christ." Those who are IN CHRIST are the predestined. Can we agree on this point?
The same question arises with Romans 8:1, 28-30. Who are the predestined?
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set youfree from the law of sin and death.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Again we see that there is no condemnation for those who are "in Christ." They have been set free from the law of sin and death. These are the predestined, not some randomly chosen individuals.
Those who love the Lord are the called, the predestined, the justified.
Twin, if you look at these passages with an open and honest heart, you will see that it is those who are "in Christ" (the church, the collective body, the saved) that are predestined, not some random individual choosing.
There are no scriptures anywhere in the Bible that tell us God chooses some individuals for salvation and not others.
God chooses ALL men to be saved. But sadly, only a few choose Him, while the many reject Him.
I believe we enter the world with God's image (spiritually) and Adam's image (physically).
Adam died spiritually "in that day". The transgression also culminated in Adam's physical death. The natural man carries both of those traits within the image and likeness of Adam.
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I think you may be trying to say that when a person is born again, he becomes the image of God, or Christ-like in spirit. I agree with that.
No, not really. I believe the image of God, His signature if you will, has always remained within man, even in his fallen state. However, the natural man, born in spiritual death and condemnation is unable to see or enter into that Kingdom, within (Rom 14:17, Luke 17:21).
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I agree that we cannot enter the kingdom until we are born again, and the reason being is because we have sinned. Sin separates us from God. "The soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20) Without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, there is no salvation.
Agreed. However, not only have we sinned, but we were "in Adam" when Adam transgressed the covenant in the Garden, being joint partakers with him. Rom 5:12, 5:18 and 1 Cor 15:22.
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We are all created in God's image, just as Adam was. The moment Adam chose to disobey God, he died spiritually, and began to die physically as well.
Agreed.
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When a child is born, he/she is created in God's image.
We were created in God's image, "in Adam".
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He is every bit as pure and innocent as Adam was. At some point, he/she sins. At that point, spiritual death takes place. If that person never comes to Jesus and becomes like a little child again, innocent and pure, then that person will die in their sins.
I disagree with your concept/doctrine here. We were "in Adam" when he transgressed the covenant. Think of it like Adam having power of Attorney for us. Adam represented the human race, all of us, when he entered into and transgressed the covenant in the Garden. We were just as much partakers of that transgression as Adam was himself. In fact the scripture says: "for that all did sin". See Rom 5:12 and 5:18.
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I think you need to prove with scripture that babies are born with sin inherited from Adam. According to Ezekiel 18, children do not inherit the sins of the father. It is the soul that sins, that dies.
I did, above. The reason sin is not imputed between the father and son (as you mention in Ezekiel 18) is that there is no indication of a covenant or Federal Headship relationship being established between those two parties, unlike what scripture tells us concerning our relationship with Adam.
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Now I know you are universalist, and you believe everyone is going to heaven, regardless.
Regardless of....? It's not really about "how" one enters the Kingdom that is often discussed between UR's and those within traditional reformed theology (at least not for me), but rather "who" ultimately enters. "How" one enters the Kingdom is usually debated between Calvinism and Arminianism. Are you familiar with the various concepts of reformed theology and the differences between Calvinism, Arminianism and UR?
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But this is not what the thread is about. It's about whether or not we are capable of choosing God, and whether or not babies are born innocent or guilty of a sin they didn't commit.
Unless born of the Spirit, no. The natural man cannot hear, understand or choose God.
And yes, all flesh, including newborn infants, enter the world the same way Adam left the garden. Spiritually dead, and in a dying state.
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Sorry I missed your posts.
Katie
No problem..
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