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this (in a shorter version) ^^^ is scripturelly correct
However Mike, I'm having trouble finding a specific verse on that .... care to offer one? I still have yet been able to find where anywhere in the Bible where there is "automatic salvation".
"without faith it is impossible to please God"
"men are without excuse"
" Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies."
If you understood that God is perfectly fair, which you don't; you are on record as saying that God is not fair, but if you understood that He is fair, then you would realize that God would not sentence to the lake of fire those who are incapable of meeting His requirement of believing on Christ.
God requires only a volitional decision to respond to the gospel with faith in Christ in order to be saved. If a person never reaches a point where they can understand the issue, then they are automatically saved because of Christ's finished work on the cross. And this is because it is impossible for God to be UNFAIR. There is no need for a specific verse which directly states that. It is a simple matter of understanding God's character.
Think about it. Would God send a person to the lake of fire when that person was never able to meet the requirement of 'Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...' (Acts 16:31). Only if He were unfair. But God is perfectly just and perfectly fair.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
This verse is the supposed proof text to show that we are born with sin. But if one examines it closely, it does not say that Adam's sin was passed on. To claim that it does is a gross misrepresentation of what the scripture says.
1. SIN entered the WORLD through Adam since he was the first to sin. No one sinned before him. He, Adam, introduced sin.
2. Spiritual death spread to all men because all men (not babies) sin. SPIRITUAL DEATH (not sin) passed upon all men and why? Because all have sinned. There you have the reason! Not because Adam sinned, but because WE ALL sin. This verse DOES NOT say that sin was passed on to all men.
3. The wages of sin is spiritual death, not physical death.
4. Physical death is not the result of our sin. If it were, none of us would live past our youth, or beyond when we know right from wrong. Physical death was decreed when Adam sinned.
Katie
RESPONSE:
Actually, you are not using the translation of Romans 5:12 that Augustine used when he formulated the doctrine of Original Sin.
"Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned." (Douay Rheims)
The "in whom" translational error makes every man guilty of Adam's sin.
Every person is supposed to bear this guilt or stain. Baptism, we are told, washes the stain away.
This teaching grew in Western Christianity, but doesn't exist in Eastern Christianity because they did hear of Augustine's theory for many centuries.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 12-19-2011 at 04:53 PM..
Reason: typo
>>Think about it. Would God send a person to the lake of fire when that person was never able to meet the requirement of 'Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...' (Acts 16:31). Only if He were unfair. But God is perfectly just and perfectly fair.<<
RESPONSE:
Not according to the Church as late as 1274 AD.
"Firstly, Augustine taught at Carthage that there is no Limbo of infants, no “place anywhere where happy [beatus] infants live who departed from this life without baptism”.
"The Council of Lyons II (1274) and that of Florence both defined that those who die with original sin only, such as unbaptized infants, are punished in hell for the guilt of original sin. The councils wrote as follows:
“The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished however with disparate punishments.”
(Disparate punishments means that the fire is as hot as elsewhere in hell).
My understanding of "calvinist" is that some are predestined to hell.... not original sin.
With all due respect Twin, I suggest you do some research on TULIP. Original sin, which began being taught by Augustine, was later taught by Calvin. It is part of total depravity. Predestination falls under Unconditional Election.
Total Depravity Unconditional Election Limited Atonement Irresistable Grace Perserverance of the Saints
Actually, you are not using the translation of Romans 5:12 that Augustine used when he formulated the doctrine of Original Sin.
"Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned." (Douay Rheims)
The "in whom" translational error makes every man guilty of Adam's sin.
Every person is supposed to bear this guilt or stain. Baptism, we are told, washes the stain away.
This teaching grew in Western Christianity, but doesn't exist in Eastern Christianity because they did hear of Augustine's theory for many centuries.
Looking at the 17 English Bible translations on biblos.com, there is only one version (Douay) that uses "in whom." I don't know where they got the "in whom" from. I don't see it in the Greek. But then, I don't know where they got Pope from either.
Baptism, for the record, does wash away sins, but it does not refer to original sin. No such thing as original sin in the Bible.
With all due respect , what the Council Of Lyons said or didn't say means absolutely nothing. All that matters is what scripture says. And scripture in no way shape or form says we had sin imputed into us cuz of Adam to the extent that we are guilty of sin cuz of his trangression.
Babies do not go to hell. Period. This is my second point. Show me a scripture that says they do.
>>Think about it. Would God send a person to the lake of fire when that person was never able to meet the requirement of 'Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...' (Acts 16:31). Only if He were unfair. But God is perfectly just and perfectly fair.<<
RESPONSE:
Not according to the Church as late as 1274 AD.
"Firstly, Augustine taught at Carthage that there is no Limbo of infants, no “place anywhere where happy [beatus] infants live who departed from this life without baptism”.
"The Council of Lyons II (1274) and that of Florence both defined that those who die with original sin only, such as unbaptized infants, are punished in hell for the guilt of original sin. The councils wrote as follows:
“The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished however with disparate punishments.”
(Disparate punishments means that the fire is as hot as elsewhere in hell).
What the word of God teaches either directly or indirectly is what matters. Not what the church may or may not believe. The church fathers were not infallable in their beliefs. And I never said anything about limbo.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-19-2011 at 06:32 PM..
Babies do not go to hell. Period. This is my second point. Show me a scripture that says they do.
May I see the scripture that says they don't?
I see an awful lot of scripture saying no one will get to heaven except through Jesus and that sort of thing. I would have thought babies were included...correct? Or aren't babies anybody yet? If babies aren't anybody yet, then I agree with you, there's no scripture that would include the condemnation of babies.
By the way. Would you consider manipulation of another human being in order to gain something you want, a sin?
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