Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The lie is in your literal translation of Psalms. I've pointed this out to you before but you don't want to listen. If you choose to translate Psalms literally instead of figuratively, then you need to be consistent, not just when it suits you.
You keep insisting God is unfair. Let me remind you that "just" is synonomous with fair. Don't take my word for it, look it up. If you believe God is unfair, then it follows that you believe He is unjust.
Katie
No katie ... not unfair, but God is not fair. A big difference. I am not a believer because of God being fair ... but because of his mercy and love.
I am being consistant. Psalm 103:10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
If God was fair, he should treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities, for "flesh gives birth to flesh"...... a baby doesn't chose to be conceived by sinful human beings.
Mike, can you show with scripture that babies are born spiritually dead? I don't see that they are. I see them as created in God's image, pure and innocent. Do you think God created Adam with a sinful nature? I don't believe you do. I believe Adam acted on choice. I believe we are no different.
Katie
From David...
Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Not trying to be rude, but what you "see" does not necessarily translate into truth in this case.
1 Sam. 16:7 - God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
God did not create Adam with a sinful nature - but his nature changed when he sinned. So now you have two people with sin natures. Are you going to tell me that this physical union produces a person with a sinless nature?
The fact that you do not have to teach bad behavior to a kid is proof that sin is in them already before they act it out.
No katie ... not unfair, but God is not fair. A big difference. I am not a believer because of God being fair ... but because of his mercy and love.
I am being consistant. Psalm 103:10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
If God was fair, he should treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities, for "flesh gives birth to flesh"...... a baby doesn't chose to be conceived by sinful human beings.
Why don't you try substituting the word 'just' for the word 'fair' and see how it sounds? Here. I will do it for you.
If God was just, He should treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our inquities.
That is what you are really saying. You are saying that God is unjust because He doesn't treat us as our sins deserve. I had already answered your claim. I told you that Jesus paid the price for our sins.And therefore it would be unfair, it would be unjust if God did repay us for our inquities when Jesus already was judged for our personal sins.
Would it be just, would it be fair if God judged us for sins that Jesus was sent into the world to be judged for? Anyone want to answer that?
The lie is in your literal translation of Psalms. I've pointed this out to you before but you don't want to listen. If you choose to translate Psalms literally instead of figuratively, then you need to be consistent, not just when it suits you.
Katie
I was reading thru the posts backwards and see that you addressed the Psalm.
Question - How should the entirety of the Psalm be interpreted if it is figurative?
Verse 1 mentions his sin w/ Bathsheba. That's not figurative.
Verses 2-4 is David asking his sin to be cleansed. That's not figurative.
The verses after verse 5 describes David wanting to be purified and wanting a clean heart.
Well, the scriptures seem to teach that we are [by nature] the children of wrath, which I've always taken to mean (born with a rebellious nature) and looking around at the world, it seems so. I mean if not, at what point does a child inherit this sin nature if not at birth?
But I did some searching on the web to see if I could find anyone who agrees with Katie and found a rather interesting page:
It seems like a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" kind of question, in that it is one of those kinds of questions that we could all argue about for all our days, but what good is it to argue over all these kinds of questions which we know a certain percent will conclude one way on, and another portion will conclude the other way on and then we "separate" from one another over yet another issue. Why do Christians do this all the time? Is it because we have an innate desire to 'Be Right', an irresistible desire to be "superior" in knowledge or in standing with God? Seems like it.
Well, the scriptures seem to teach that we are [by nature] the children of wrath, which I've always taken to mean (born with a rebellious nature) and looking around at the world, it seems so. I mean if not, at what point does a child inherit this sin nature if not at birth?
But I did some searching on the web to see if I could find anyone who agrees with Katie and found a rather interesting page:
It seems like a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" kind of question, in that it is one of those kinds of questions that we could all argue about for all our days, but what good is it to argue over all these kinds of questions which we know a certain percent will conclude one way on, and another portion will conclude the other way on and then we "separate" from one another over yet another issue. Why do Christians do this all the time? Is it because we have an innate desire to 'Be Right', an irresistible desire to be "superior" in knowledge or in standing with God? Seems like it.
To me it has never been a question that we are born with a tendency to gravitate towards doing wrong much easier than doing good.
The question to me is about when a person becomes aware of that and who is ultimatly responsible for the modification of that behavior. Just ask a school teacher the problems they have with kids whos parents think their kid does no wrong.
God will judge everyone, even the unborn, but each person will be judged according to where responsibility fell. What the hell are babies responsible for? Being concieved?
To me it has never been a question that we are born with a tendency to gravitate towards doing wrong much easier than doing good.
The question to me is about when a person becomes aware of that and who is ultimatly responsible for the modification of that behavior. Just ask a school teacher the problems they have with kids whos parents think their kid does no wrong.
God will judge everyone, even the unborn, but each person will be judged according to where responsibility fell. What the hell are babies responsible for? Being concieved?
Well, even if we are "by nature the children of wrath" it is also true that Christ is the light the gives light to everyone who comes into the world. Everything spiritual is an echo of nature in its "laws of constancy" or "universalism" (if you will). None are excluded from judgement or salvation, in other words -- except the "son of perdition" which will be consumed away/burnt up.
Well, even if we are "by nature the children of wrath" it is also true that Christ is the light the gives light to everyone who comes into the world. Everything spiritual is an echo of nature in its "laws of constancy" or "universalism" (if you will). None are excluded from judgement or salvation, in other words -- except the "son of perdition" which will be consumed away/burnt up.
That is also another problem, the term "wrath" is not often seen as something good of God.
Yet it is. We are all children of wrath, we are all subject to Gods nature.
Our negative nature may not see it as good, but when that wrath eliminates our imperfection, it is glorious as we will learn.
That is why being in the hands of God is always ultimatly the best place anyone can be.
God will judge everyone, even the unborn, but each person will be judged according to where responsibility fell. What the hell are babies responsible for? Being concieved?
Salvation is not based on deeds. So it doesn't matter that babies performed no sinful action.
Deeds will be judged, but they will not affect one's eternal destiny.
From what i know adam never was a sinner, a lot of the bible is a metaphor trying to help you understand what could be so that you can shape the future for better if it turns out the bad way through time. Just as christ was the scapegoat to free people from sin, adam was the sacapegoat so no one could be at fault for the origination of sin. Though a wise human understands his sin is his fault not just a pathway paved by adams supposedly original sin that says humans will sin. Love was made in the garden to flourish the earth but a scapegoat was needed in order to decieve the unwise, while the wise take the blame and repent. But almost all say He started it instead of understanding through time Humans just began to suck. Like they say YOU never LEarn unless YOU realize YOUR mistake.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
