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Physical death is the result of spiritual death. How does spiritual death spread to all men? Through physical birth. That is why Jesus had to be born through a virgin birth. The Old sin nature is passed through the male.
I am going to through a monkey-wrench in here and point out that Mary had a father so if sin is passed through the males then her father must have passed it onto her...Jeshua was born a man along with all our infirmnities including the sin nature and through His example we see the Way to overcome this sin nature...I think there was an example of the temptation of cowardice in the garden when He asked that this cup may pass from Him, but then showed true bravery by saying, not My will but Thine be done...If Jeshua was indeed not born with our sin nature, I doubt that the Satan would have attempted to temtp Him...
I am going to through a monkey-wrench in here and point out that Mary had a father so if sin is passed through the males then her father must have passed it onto her...Jeshua was born a man along with all our infirmnities including the sin nature and through His example we see the Way to overcome this sin nature...I think there was an example of the temptation of cowardice in the garden when He asked that this cup may pass from Him, but then showed true bravery by saying, not My will but Thine be done...If Jeshua was indeed not born with our sin nature, I doubt that the Satan would have attempted to temtp Him...
Richard, the mother cannot transmit the sin nature. The egg before being fertilized by the sperm is free from the contamination of the sin nature. It is not until the egg is fertilized that the sin nature is passed to it. The reason is because meiosis and the destruction of polar bodies results in a womans egg remaining free of contamination from the genetically transmitted old sin nature. At the time that the egg cell is released from the ovary, there is cellular division called meiosis which reduces the number of chromosomes from forty-six to twenty-three. In this process, the contamination of the sin nature is thrown off into non-functional polar bodies which soon disintigrate. This leaves an unfertilized egg which is free from the contamination of the sin nature.
When the sperm of the male fertilizes the egg, the twenty-three chromosomes which the male contributes to the reproductive process and which are contaminated with the sin nature recontaminate the now fertilized egg. It is for that reason that Jesus had to come into the world through a virgin birth. And that is why Genesis 3:15 refers to the woman's seed rather than the seed of the man.
I think I did a fairly accurate though incomplete description of the process involved. I did a brief and loose paraphrase from R.B. Thieme JR's 'The Intregrity of God, p. 61. I did leave out quite a bit. But that gives the basic idea.
My understanding of "calvinist" is that some are predestined to hell.... not original sin.
That is hyper-Calvinism due to the arguement that Paul builds in the Letter to the Romans, specifically:
Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Rom 9:11 for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling,
Rom 9:13 even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau." Mal. 1:2, 3
Rom 9:14 What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be!
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[/SIZE]Rom 9:15 For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will pity whomever I will pity." Ex. 33:19
Rom 9:16 So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy, of God.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might display My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth." Ex. 9:16
Rom 9:18 So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.
Rom 9:19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
Rom 9:20 Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa. 29:16
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor? Jer. 18:6
Rom 9:22 But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,
Rom 9:24 whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also out of nations.
The Hyper-Calvinist states that IF Hawyaw has predestinated those that are to be saved, then by logic and reason He must have therefore predestinated those that are not to be saved to Hell...Looking at verse 22...These are those that were created for a purpose just as Pharoah was
G2675
καταρτίζω
katartizō
kat-ar-tid'-zo
From G2596 and a derivative of G739; to complete thoroughly, that is, repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: - fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect (-ly join together), prepare, restore.
This was a maritime word used to describe a ship or boat fitted for a specific function....
...Look at verse 19, Paul states a hypothetical question and then answers it also...If it were possible for the non-believer to ask 'If it is Hawyaws will that I am rebellious, then how is that fair that He condemn me for that, am I able to resist His will?'...He follows this with verse 20...And then to clarify, verse 21...
If you understood that God is perfectly fair, which you don't; you are on record as saying that God is not fair, but if you understood that He is fair, then you would realize that God would not sentence to the lake of fire those who are incapable of meeting His requirement of believing on Christ.
God requires only a volitional decision to respond to the gospel with faith in Christ in order to be saved. If a person never reaches a point where they can understand the issue, then they are automatically saved because of Christ's finished work on the cross. And this is because it is impossible for God to be UNFAIR. There is no need for a specific verse which directly states that. It is a simple matter of understanding God's character.
Think about it. Would God send a person to the lake of fire when that person was never able to meet the requirement of 'Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...' (Acts 16:31). Only if He were unfair. But God is perfectly just and perfectly fair.
If everyone is born into conemnation then how is this possible?...What of those that were already fitted for destruction?...
>>Think about it. Would God send a person to the lake of fire when that person was never able to meet the requirement of 'Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...' (Acts 16:31). Only if He were unfair. But God is perfectly just and perfectly fair.<<
RESPONSE:
Not according to the Church as late as 1274 AD.
"Firstly, Augustine taught at Carthage that there is no Limbo of infants, no “place anywhere where happy [beatus] infants live who departed from this life without baptismâ€.
"The Council of Lyons II (1274) and that of Florence both defined that those who die with original sin only, such as unbaptized infants, are punished in hell for the guilt of original sin. The councils wrote as follows:
“The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished however with disparate punishments.â€
(Disparate punishments means that the fire is as hot as elsewhere in hell).
I would ask if they go directly to hell after death, then what of the resurrection of the dead to Judgement?...I think their understanding was missing there...I think the Jews believe that if a baby dies it returns to the Guff to be reborn...
Looking at the 17 English Bible translations on biblos.com, there is only one version (Douay) that uses "in whom." I don't know where they got the "in whom" from. I don't see it in the Greek. But then, I don't know where they got Pope from either.
Baptism, for the record, does wash away sins, but it does not refer to original sin. No such thing as original sin in the Bible.
Katie
G3739
ός, ή, ό
hos hē ho
hos, hay, ho
Probably a primary word (or perhaps a form of the article G3588); the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that: - one, (an-, the) other, some, that, what, which, who (-m, -se), etc. See also G3757.
That is where it comes from....You need a more intensive study of the Greek...And Greek word meaning...
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
I don't know how anyone can say there is no such thing as a sinful nature when the New Testament refers to it at least a dozen times. Plus, Paul says we are by nature objects of wrath. How can babies be innocent in God's eyes when the are born objects of wrath by nature.
Show me just one passage that says sin nature. If what you claim is true, that the Bible says it a dozen times, then cite the verses. Just because you interpret something to mean sin nature, doesn't make it true.
The early church vehemently denied the doctrine of inherited depravity. You are following the teachings of the gnostics, Mani, Augustine, Luther and Calvin. This is a false doctrine.
With all due respect , what the Council Of Lyons said or didn't say means absolutely nothing. All that matters is what scripture says. And scripture in no way shape or form says we had sin imputed into us cuz of Adam to the extent that we are guilty of sin cuz of his trangression.
Babies do not go to hell. Period. This is my second point. Show me a scripture that says they do.
Show me scripture that say that don't...If condemnation has passed to all mankind because of Adam...Are you stating that babies are exempt from this condemnation?...Then that means that they are not part of mankind...Then what are they?...Logic dictates that if condemnation has passed to all mankind, that that would include babies for they are also mankind...And if it is required to show Faith in Jeshua, then how would that be possible for babies...It states that Hawyaw chooses whom He will and passes over whom He will...This would also includes babies...Some would be chosen for grace and others passed over....
I see an awful lot of scripture saying no one will get to heaven except through Jesus and that sort of thing. I would have thought babies were included...correct? Or aren't babies anybody yet? If babies aren't anybody yet, then I agree with you, there's no scripture that would include the condemnation of babies.
If you look at Job, it implies that Job had an identity before he even had life...
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