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Eusebius, when Adam disobeyed God, he sinned. It is a fact that sin separates us from God. When we are separated from God, we are spiritually dead.
God told Adam, "“From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
God promised death to Adam in the day that you eat from it. We know Adam didn't die physically that day. He died spiritually because he disobeyed God.
Anyone who sins is separated from God and is spiritually dead. The only way they can be reconciled to God is by obeying the gospel.
You are right about babies though. They do not inherit sin nor do they inherit a sinful nature. God doesn't create evil.
Katie
Adam did die in the day that he ate from it. For to God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day:
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Adam didn't live to reach a 1000 years so he died in that Spirtual day.
I didn't think to include the following in my answer.
Only Adam was directly created by God in terms of body, soul and spirit. It is true that God in every case directly creates the soul of everyone who is born and imputes it at birth to the fetus at the point where it is able to take its first independent breath. But with regard to the body, only Adam was created by God. Eve of course was made from one of Adams ribs. But what happens is that everyone comes into the world by way of being born. When the soul which is created by God and is perfect at that point, is imputed to the body of the new born infant, it comes into contact with the genetically transmitted old sin nature and is tainted. And therefore at physical birth the baby is born spiritually dead.
You are saying:
1. Babies don't get a soul until they are born, until they take their first breath.
2. Sin nature is genetically transferred, therefore, babies are spiritually dead.
If you don't believe that babies get a soul until they take their first breath, then you must believe abortion is an acceptable practice. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll let you explain. I would also ask you to provide specific scripture to support your view.
Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature, yet they sinned. Why? Because they had "choice." We sin because we have choice, not because sinful nature is genetically transferred from our parents. Sin is a spiritual choice. It is a spiritual entity that separates man from God. Sin itself, is not phsyical but spiritual in nature. (Isa. 59:2) Sinful acts may be physical, but sin itself is a spiritual choice made in the mind. (Mark 7:14-23) and not subject to physical traits. It is the soul that sins. The body carries out the act. Sin first originates in the heart, then is dwelt upon in the mind, and finally acted out physically.
It is impossible that sin or sin nature could be transferred through genetic material. Are you saying we have a "sin gene?" Genetic material can only produce physical qualities, not spiritual qualities. Sin nature cannot be passed on in the same way that eye color, disease, etc are. If so, then what is the genetic marker we can point to and say, "Ohhh, there's the sin gene?"
Immediately after Adam and Eve sinned, God describes the penalty imputed to Adam, Eve, and the Serpent. It never mentions that all of Adam's descendants will inherit a sinful nature. Again, Adam and Eve did not need a sinful nature to disobey God, yet you believe that we do.
Scripture nowhere suggests that babies are born spiritually dead. You cannot base a doctrine on assumption. You must have scriptural support. Without it, the doctrine is false.
Scripture nowhere suggests that babies are born spiritually dead. You cannot base a doctrine on assumption. You must have scriptural support. Without it, the doctrine is false.
That may be true, however, it is also the same problem to say babies are exempt from needing Christ before they die under the doctrines that say you must accept Jesus Christ and be baptized in order to be saved.
How is a baby saved, then, if not through Christ?
There is no scriptural exemption that will not extend to adults in the same manner.
This is why the stance that God will save all mankind is actually the most consistant in those terms. Even people who promote doctrines that say a baby born who dies is damned finds a hard time extending that to the unborn but they cannot supply a scriptural exemption for them because there is none and they are silenced by the scriptures in their ridiculous beliefs.
If a human being must accept Christ and meet some other criteria to be saved, then that means all humans, uncluding the unborn.
To say babies are exempt is to say they do not need Christ, which scripturally is untrue.
We all need Christ, including unborn babies, the scriptural truth of the matter points towards this life not being the end all of what needs to happen concerning our journey and spiritual needs.
That may be true, however, it is also the same problem to say babies are exempt from needing Christ before they die under the doctrines that say you must accept Jesus Christ and be baptized in order to be saved.
How is a baby saved, then, if not through Christ?
There is no scriptural exemption that will not extend to adults in the same manner.
This is why the stance that God will save all mankind is actually the most consistant in those terms. Even people who promote doctrines that say a baby born who dies is damned finds a hard time extending that to the unborn but they cannot supply a scriptural exemption for them because there is none and they are silenced by the scriptures in their ridiculous beliefs.
If a human being must accept Christ and meet some other criteria to be saved, then that means all humans, uncluding the unborn.
To say babies are exempt is to say they do not need Christ, which scripturally is untrue.
We all need Christ, including unborn babies, the scriptural truth of the matter points towards this life not being the end all of what needs to happen concerning our journey and spiritual needs.
There is only one thing that separates us from God and that is sin. Babies have no sin, therefore, they are not separated from God. Sinners must be reconciled to God through His Son, Jesus Christ. Babies have no need for reconciliation.
Babies are not capable of sinning, nor are they able to believe, repent or confess with the mouths that Jesus is the son of God. Since they have no sins to forgive, they have no need for baptism.
1. Babies don't get a soul until they are born, until they take their first breath.
2. Sin nature is genetically transferred, therefore, babies are spiritually dead.
If you don't believe that babies get a soul until they take their first breath, then you must believe abortion is an acceptable practice. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll let you explain. I would also ask you to provide specific scripture to support your view.
Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature, yet they sinned. Why? Because they had "choice." We sin because we have choice, not because sinful nature is genetically transferred from our parents. Sin is a spiritual choice. It is a spiritual entity that separates man from God. Sin itself, is not phsyical but spiritual in nature. (Isa. 59:2) Sinful acts may be physical, but sin itself is a spiritual choice made in the mind. (Mark 7:14-23) and not subject to physical traits. It is the soul that sins. The body carries out the act. Sin first originates in the heart, then is dwelt upon in the mind, and finally acted out physically.
It is impossible that sin or sin nature could be transferred through genetic material. Are you saying we have a "sin gene?" Genetic material can only produce physical qualities, not spiritual qualities. Sin nature cannot be passed on in the same way that eye color, disease, etc are. If so, then what is the genetic marker we can point to and say, "Ohhh, there's the sin gene?"
Immediately after Adam and Eve sinned, God describes the penalty imputed to Adam, Eve, and the Serpent. It never mentions that all of Adam's descendants will inherit a sinful nature. Again, Adam and Eve did not need a sinful nature to disobey God, yet you believe that we do.
Scripture nowhere suggests that babies are born spiritually dead. You cannot base a doctrine on assumption. You must have scriptural support. Without it, the doctrine is false.
Katie
Regarding the blue - Babies do have a soul and spirit in the womb. When John the Baptist was in the womb, he reacted when Mary, who was impregnated w/ Jesus, came to visit. So I agree with you here.
Regarding the purple - Writing to the church as Ephesus, and describing their past status before becoming believers, he writes that...
Eph. 2:3 - ...we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
You are right in that we choose to sin. But how many billions or trillions of people have lived on the earth since the beginning? And 100% of those born of a man and woman after Adam have sinned? 100%? Even though Eph. 2:3 makes the statement, it is safe to take it to the next level and suggest that maybe there is a deeper root to sin that goes beyond mere choice.
Regarding the black - Remember that thought when you include water in your baptisms for the Father, Son, and Spirit.
There is only one thing that separates us from God and that is sin. Babies have no sin, therefore, they are not separated from God. Sinners must be reconciled to God through His Son, Jesus Christ. Babies have no need for reconciliation.
Babies are not capable of sinning, nor are they able to believe, repent or confess with the mouths that Jesus is the son of God. Since they have no sins to forgive, they have no need for baptism.
Katie
Can you provide the scripture references that exclude babies specifically. The scriptures say all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Unfortunatly emotion ignores that fact of it's application to even an unborn baby because religious nonsense has poinsoned peoples mind into thinking that a baby couldn't possibly be short of the glory of God but it is. No baby as innocent in this life as they are has achieved the glory of God.
You cannot find any scriptural exception for babies, your opinion is noted, but that is all it is.
If you had the scriptures excluding babies from the need to be reconciled to God through Jesus, you would have posted them already.
In scripture we see Jesus telling the adul;ts to let the children come? Come to what? what do they need to come to if they have no spiritual need.
It is religions insistance that there is some ritualistic performance for adults to gain salvation that does not let people see their nonsense.
Babies need Jesus just as much as you and I do. Fortunatly, God brings them to him as he does all of us, no exceptions, all are saved through Jesus Christ, no need to invent things, thats is what God does.
Can you provide the scripture references that exclude babies specifically. The scriptures say all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Unfortunatly emotion ignores that fact of it's application to even an unborn baby because religious nonsense has poinsoned peoples mind into thinking that a baby couldn't possibly be short of the glory of God but it is. No baby as innocent in this life as they are has achieved the glory of God.
You cannot find any scriptural exception for babies, your opinion is noted, but that is all it is.
If you had the scriptures excluding babies from the need to be reconciled to God through Jesus, you would have posted them already.
In scripture we see Jesus telling the adul;ts to let the children come? Come to what? what do they need to come to if they have no spiritual need.
It is religions insistance that there is some ritualistic performance for adults to gain salvation that does not let people see their nonsense.
Babies need Jesus just as much as you and I do. Fortunatly, God brings them to him as he does all of us, no exceptions, all are saved through Jesus Christ, no need to invent things, thats is what God does.
If you are completely honest with yourself you will research the doctrine of original sin/sin nature/inherited depravity. You will learn that it originated with the gnostics and was bought into by Augustine who was influenced by Manichaean thought. Lutber and Calvin were influenced by Augustine. But NEVER did the early church teach this false doctrine. They vehemently opposed the gnostics who also taught that we have no free will.
Question: How do we inherit sin? Physically or spiritually?
If you are completely honest with yourself you will research the doctrine of original sin/sin nature/inherited depravity. You will learn that it originated with the gnostics and was bought into by Augustine who was influenced by Manichaean thought. Lutber and Calvin were influenced by Augustine. But NEVER did the early church teach this false doctrine. They vehemently opposed the gnostics who also taught that we have no free will.
Question: How do we inherit sin? Physically or spiritually?
Katie
You are missing my point, what scripture do you have that exempts babies from the process of salvation through Jesus.
My point is that RELIGION has poisoned the well and to call a baby a sinner is seen a something bad, when all it amounts to is that the baby is born into a state of imperfection and decay.
You do realize that the baby is simply in a stage of development that ends up in death, no matter how it lives it's life. The baby is not exempt from that no matter how cute it is.
You have to get out of your religion to see how wonderful it is that God judges the babies the same as he judges all mankind and that it is a means to the end of salvation.
If God doesn't judge the babies including the unborn then they would indeed perish. He does judge them, that is how we can know they are safe in his hands.
Being in Gods hands is the best place any human can be, there are no exceptions.
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