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i am not good at explaining this so please try to follow my logic here:
Paul was told by the holy spirit that he was going to preach in rome: Act 23:11¶And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
so anything written from that time until he testified in rome (years later) could not have mentioned christ coming at anytime. if paul would have been raptured before reaching rome the holy spirit would have been a liar.
john was told in revelation: Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
so, anything written before john was told this could not have even remotely hinted that jesus was coming at any moment. because it would have contradicted this verse.
also peter was told that when he grows old he would be led to his death (not exact verse). Jesus told him that. so anything that peter wrote could not have mentioned that jesus was coming at any moment. If peter did not grow old jesus would have been a liar.
If you search the history of christianity, there is no such belief as a immenent rapture until recent times( few 100 years).
If i had my bible here at work i would have been able to explain a little better. I hope this helps a bit.
Good points!
Our rapture lovers can point only at 1Thesa 4, but no other scripture proclaiming that we will all rapture to be with the Lord. Even that scripture is very misunderstood!
Those who deny the pretribulational rapture of the church ignore the fact that Revelation 19:7-8 shows the entire raptured church in heaven while the tribulation is taking place on the earth. The church is the bride of Christ. In Revelation 19:7 the bride has made herself ready as a result of having gone through the judgment seat of Christ and is as a result clothed in white linen which is the righteous acts of the saints - a reference to the judgment seat of Christ in which the works of church-age believers are evaluated as 'gold, silver and precious stones,' or as 'wood, hay and stubble.'
The marriage of the Lamb does not involve half a bride, or some portion of a bride. The marriage of the Lamb to the church involves the entire, the complete bride. The entire church is referred to in Revelation 19:7-8 and it got there by being raptured - caught up into heaven.
ln Rev 19:14 the bride is a part of the armies of heaven following Christ when He returns to the earth.
Those who are interested can refer to my thread concerning the rapture of the church.
Those who deny the pretribulational rapture of the church ignore the fact that Revelation 19:7-8 shows the entire raptured church in heaven while the tribulation is taking place on the earth. The church is the bride of Christ. In Revelation 19:7 the bride has made herself ready as a result of having gone through the judgment seat of Christ and is as a result clothed in white linen which is the righteous acts of the saints - a reference to the judgment seat of Christ in which the works of church-age believers are evaluated as 'gold, silver and precious stones,' or as 'wood, hay and stubble.'
The marriage of the Lamb does not involve half a bride, or some portion of a bride. The marriage of the Lamb to the church involves the entire, the complete bride. The entire church is referred to in Revelation 19:7-8 and it got there by being raptured - caught up into heaven.
ln Rev 19:14 the bride is a part of the armies of heaven following Christ when He returns to the earth.
Those who are interested can refer to my thread concerning the rapture of the church.
I think sir, that you misunderstand the book of Revelation. John was shown things in heaven that were to happen on earth. its that simple. All things you see in Revelations are things which have been programmed to occur on earth.
So, if you imagine that the events are to happen in heaven, you have misunderstood it and that misunderstanding will lead to a wrong interpretation. The Revelations only confirmed Christ message about the coming of the kingdom of God. That was why from Chapter 4, it shows you how God will be worshiped on earth and how Christ will later assume his authority as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. In no way does it remotely suggest rapture. No, sir. The temple of God will be established on earth and his servants will serve him, arrayed in white garment.
The marriage of the Lamb is the gathering together of the children of God under one fold, which is an ongoing thing atm.
The world is experiencing judgement right now, not only tribulation. Guys like Ghadafi are no more and many others will follow suit. The problem in the world point to a crumbling system of things. It was written that 'in the days of these Kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom...' Dan 2: 44. The Kingdom will grow strong and break to pieces all others and then stand for ever...
I think sir, that you misunderstand the book of Revelation. John was shown things in heaven that were to happen on earth. its that simple. All things you see in Revelations are things which have been programmed to occur on earth.
So, if you imagine that the events are to happen in heaven, you have misunderstood it and that misunderstanding will lead to a wrong interpretation. The Revelations only confirmed Christ message about the coming of the kingdom of God. That was why from Chapter 4, it shows you how God will be worshiped on earth and how Christ will later assume his authority as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. In no way does it remotely suggest rapture. No, sir. The temple of God will be established on earth and his servants will serve him, arrayed in white garment.
The marriage of the Lamb is the gathering together of the children of God under one fold, which is an ongoing thing atm.
The world is experiencing judgement right now, not only tribulation. Guys like Ghadafi are no more and many others will follow suit. The problem in the world point to a crumbling system of things. It was written that 'in the days of these Kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom...' Dan 2: 44. The Kingdom will grow strong and break to pieces all others and then stand for ever...
John was shown the things which are and the things which shall take place (Rev 1:19). John was shown both things that were to take place on the earth and in heaven.
Beginning with chapter 4, John was taken up into heaven in the spirit where he saw the Lord sitting on the throne. What John described regarding what was to take place during the tribulation on earth was while he was in heaven in the spirit. In Revelation 6:9-11, 7:9-14, and 20:4 John saw tribulational martyrs in heaven while the tribulation is occuring on earth.
In Revelation 19:7-8 the scene is in heaven. The bride (the church) has already gone through the judgment seat of Christ and has been made ready for the marriage of the Lamb. In Rev 19:11 Jesus is returning to the earth and the armies of the Lord which includes the church are folowing Him.
The raptured church - the bride is in heaven as Revelation 19:7-8 clearly shows.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-28-2011 at 03:21 PM..
The use of the term 'caught up' conveys the meaning of going over to the sky. But we need to understand that Paul had used the same term in describing his spiritual vorays in paradise. In that light, the term may not necessarily be a physical evacuation to the sky. And why will we be for ever with the Lord in the sky? How will we eat, live, go to school etc? Life in the sky would be impractical. The confusion is the term 'air'. Where is the 'air'? Understand that, then you understand that, we, the righteous are meant to be in the world or 'air' with the Lord for ever! The air = the world.
Is God not competent enough destroy the bad ones without affecting the good? If he did that several thousand years back in Egypt, as well as in Noah's time, why will our own time be different?
First off ... when Christ appears it is only once, not multiple of times.
When he returns,
the earth as you know it will cease to exist,
the universe will cease to exist as you know it,
time will exist as you know it,
current personal relationships (husband\wife.. parents \children) will cease to exist as we currently understand them
people will be cleary divided into those who are and those who are not believers
We however we will not "live in the air" ........ for
a "new heavens and new earth" will be in it's place
"the old order of things has passed away"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron
"Is God not competent enough destroy the bad ones without affecting the good? If he did that several thousand years back in Egypt, as well as in Noah's time, why will our own time be different?"
When God dealt with Egypt ... there happened to be sin yet in the world.
When God dealt with people of Noah's time ... Noah and his family were still sinners, who had sinful babies and so on
When God deals with the end of the world ... sin \ death\ Satan \ unbelievers will be dealt with once and for all.
John was shown the things which are and the things which shall take place (Rev 1:19). John was shown both things that were to take place on the earth and in heaven.
Beginning with chapter 4, John was taken up into heaven in the spirit where he saw the Lord sitting on the throne. What John described regarding what was to take place during the tribulation on earth was while he was in heaven in the spirit. In Revelation 6:9-11, 7:9-14, and 20:4 John saw tribulational martyrs in heaven while the tribulation is occuring on earth.
In Revelation 19:7-8 the scene is in heaven. The bride (the church) has already gone through the judgment seat of Christ and has been made ready for the marriage of the Lamb. In Rev 19:11 Jesus is returning to the earth and the armies of the Lord which includes the church are folowing Him.
The raptured church - the bride is in heaven as Revelation 19:7-8 clearly shows.
Mike,
The important thing is that he was shown things that will come to pass on earth here. All things that happen here, must already have happened in heaven or spirit realm. So the vision was shown to him as happening in heaven, but the vision must definitely happen on earth, here. All the Revelations is confirming is the physical establishment of god's kingdom on earth.
Quote:
In Revelation 6:9-11, 7:9-14, and 20:4 John saw tribulational martyrs in heaven while the tribulation is occuring on earth.
These verses confirm that God and Christ will already be on earth during the tribulations, which by the way is already ongoing. It is the presence of the God and the eventual ruler ship of the Son of God that accelerates the tribulation and judgement.
Why would they rejoice and shout Alleluia for the Lord God omnipotent reingneth? Will he reign on an empty earth? Again you totally confuse the marriage of the lamb, which is the gathering together of children of God to be in one accord with their creator. All the events - the judgements, the marriage super etc will happen on earth and are already happening. The kingdom of this world has become the Kingdom of Jehova God and His Christ - That statement has come to manifest in our lifetime- Alleluia!
All the things that you see, including the impending implosion of world powers are only attributable to HIM. He has come to reign.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-04-2012 at 07:51 PM..
Reason: red font is reserved for moderation
The important thing is that he was shown things that will come to pass on earth here. All things that happen here, must already have happened in heaven or spirit realm. So the vision was shown to him as happening in heaven, but the vision must definitely happen on earth, here. All the Revelations is confirming is the physical establishment of god's kingdom on earth.
These verses confirm that God and Christ will already be on earth during the tribulations, which by the way is already ongoing. It is the presence of the God and the eventual ruler ship of the Son of God that accelerates the tribulation and judgement.
Why would they rejoice and shout Alleluia for the Lord God omnipotent reingneth? Will he reign on an empty earth? Again you totally confuse the marriage of the lamb, which is the gathering together of children of God to be in one accord with their creator. All the events - the judgements, the marriage super etc will happen on earth and are already happening. The kingdom of this world has become the Kingdom of Jehova God and His Christ - That statement has come to manifest in our lifetime- Alleluia!
All the things that you see, including the impending implosion of world powers are only attributable to HIM. He has come to reign.
The tribulation is not already happening. The tribulation cannot occur until the church is removed from the earth. And the passages I mentioned take place in heaven.
Revelation 6:9 'And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of thse who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, syng, ''how long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?''
This is in heaven. These are tribulational martyrs in heaven during which time the tribulation is occurring on the earth. They are asking how much longer it will be before they are avenged by those who dwell on the earth.
The other passages I mentioned are also taking place in heaven. To see that Revelation 19:7-8 are in heaven simply refer to v11 and following in which Christ is about to return to the earth followed by the armies of heaven.
Look. I'll make this quick. You have no understanding of the dispensational nature of God's plan for the ages. You do not understand that the church has nothing whatsoever to do with the tribulation which is God's judgment on Israel and the unbelieving nations of the earth. The church is not Israel, and the church does not consist of unbelievers.
God's program calls for the church to be taken up into heaven where church-age believers are evaluated for their spiritual production while they were alive on the earth. This takes place while the tribulation is taking place on earth. The church then returns with Christ to the earth at the end of the tribulation.
An important distinction to make is between a general rapture and a Secret Rapture. One is scriptural and one is not. For those seeking truth I strongly recommend Secret Rapture Theory - Seven Year Tribulation as it is quite an indepth study of the matter.
Mike, I think the reason you keep getting tripped up on Revelation is that you are trying to read it as a linear chronology and not realizing that it has several timelines that are running parallel to one another. Another important thing that you are forgetting is that Christ will return to earth 3 times. At Christ's 2nd coming, there will be strictly two groups of people who are alive, those who followed God and those who rejected God. Those that accepted God will be "caught up" to meet Him in the clouds, and those who rejected God will be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. In addition, those through out history who have died accepting God, will be resurrected to join God's followers still alive. At His 2nd coming, Christ's feet will never touch the earth; hence Christ's warning "if they tell you I am in the desert do not go". It will not be until after the 1000 years, in which this planet is desolate and completely devoid of human life, that Christ will return a third time. This time he will return with the new city of Jerusalem and all those redeemed at His second coming. It is at this third coming that His foot will touch down upon the mount of olives. Also, it is at the third coming that all the wicked will be resurrected to face their final judgement.
When you take your last breath - that is the rapture..everyone that lives will face death..it is Gods cruel little joke for us wanna be immortals..I guess God has a sense of humor - you either face oblivion or eternal life...in the mean time better enjoy this gift - that is life right now - only God knows what lays beyond - and that will never be revealed ....we are mortals - and it is terrifying to have the mind of a god - and a body that fails...."a little lower than the angels" I suppose...yep - the big daddy in the sky has a sense of humor - a little dark on occassion - but at least we can look upon death with bravery and faith - God instilled that quality in his human creations - so prepare - cos' we all end up gone in the end...
An important distinction to make is between a general rapture and a Secret Rapture. One is scriptural and one is not. For those seeking truth I strongly recommend Secret Rapture Theory - Seven Year Tribulation as it is quite an indepth study of the matter.
Mike, I think the reason you keep getting tripped up on Revelation is that you are trying to read it as a linear chronology and not realizing that it has several timelines that are running parallel to one another. Another important thing that you are forgetting is that Christ will return to earth 3 times. At Christ's 2nd coming, there will be strictly two groups of people who are alive, those who followed God and those who rejected God. Those that accepted God will be "caught up" to meet Him in the clouds, and those who rejected God will be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. In addition, those through out history who have died accepting God, will be resurrected to join God's followers still alive. At His 2nd coming, Christ's feet will never touch the earth; hence Christ's warning "if they tell you I am in the desert do not go". It will not be until after the 1000 years, in which this planet is desolate and completely devoid of human life, that Christ will return a third time. This time he will return with the new city of Jerusalem and all those redeemed at His second coming. It is at this third coming that His foot will touch down upon the mount of olives. Also, it is at the third coming that all the wicked will be resurrected to face their final judgement.
To the contrary. It is not I who have been tripped up as you put it.. As I told the author of this thread I now tell you that you understand nothing about the dispensational nature of God's plan. If you did have a proper understanding of it, you would realize that the church has absolutely nothing to do the the tribulation which involves Israel and the unbelieving Gentile nations. During the tribulation the church will be in heaven undergoing the jugdment seat of Christ, after which the church - the bride will have been made ready for the marriage of the Lamb.
Contrary to what you said, when Christ returns at the end of the tribulation His feet do indeed set down on the Mount of Olives as shown in Zechariah 14:1-8.
There are three main divisions in the book of Revelation. In John 1:19 John was commanded to write 1.) Of things past - ''the things which you have seen,'' with reference to the Patmos vision (Rev 1:1-20);2.) Things present, ''The things which are'' - the existing churches (Rev 2:1-3:22);3.) ''things future'' - the things which shall take place after these things - events after the Church-age ends (Rev 4:1-22:5).
Within those three main divisions, there are further divisions as follows;
1.) The introduction (1:1-3);
2.) The messages of the Ascended Lord to the Seven Churches (1:4-3:22);
3.) The Scene in heaven and The Opening of the Seven-sealed Scroll (chapters 4-6; 8:1);
4.) A Parenthesis; Jews and Gentiles saved during the Tribulation - a great multitude from every nation standing before the throne and before the Lamb in heaven (Chapter 7);
5.) The Seven Trumpet Judgments (8:2-9:21; 11:15-19);
6.) Parenthesis; (10:1-11:14);
7.) Prominent Personages - The woman (Israel), The Red Dragon (Satan), The male Child (Christ), The Angel (Michael) (Chapter 12)
8.) The rise and reign of the Beast and false prophet (Chapter 13);
9.) Parenthesis; (Chapter 14);
10.) The Seven Bowl Judgments (Chapters 15-16).
11.) The Doom of Babylon (Chapters 17-18)
12.) The Bride in heaven, the coming of Christ, the Battle of Armageddon and the Millennial kingdom which follows (19:1-20:6);
13.) The Final judgment and the Holy City (20:7-22:5).
14.) The Final message of the Bible (22:6-19);
15.) The Conclusion (22:20-21).
The Church is in heaven, having been raptured, as of the beginning of Chapter 4. The church - the Bride is not spoken of again until Chapter 19 when the bride has been made ready for the marriage of the Lamb.
Concerning the identity of the 24 elders who are mentioned in Rev 4:4, the two major views held by scholars or 1.) That they represent the church raptured prior to this time and rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ; or 2.) That they are angels which have been given large responsibilities.
Since the 24 Elders are seated on thrones and are wearing victors crowns, the most reasonable conclusion is that they represent the raptured church in heaven.
Jesus Christ will return for His church prior to the tribulation. He will return to set up His kingdom at the end of the Tribulation.
The resurrection of the church takes place at the pre-tribulational rapture. The resurrection of Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs will occur when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation.
Now for those who want to avail themselves of the study of Revelation, here are two studies by two different doctrinally oriented pastor/teachers.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-31-2011 at 02:25 AM..
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