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Old 02-22-2012, 03:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
I found your FYI very interesting. I have never seen the official position of the RCC on the Bible being the inspired word of God. If you could post a link for that, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Katie
Hi Katie:

That the Bible is the inspired word of God is part of the legacy that the RCC delivered to the reformers and to churches like yours.

Quote:
5. What proof have we that the Bible is inspired?

The Catholic Church, which is infallible, teaches us so.
6. Does not the Church itself rely on the Bible for proofs of its infallibility?

Besides those found in the Bible, the Church has many other proofs for its infallibility.
7. What general proof have we for the inspiration of the Bible?

Besides many others, we have Our Lord's constant references to the Old Testament as the word of God, while the early Christian Church testifies to the inspiration of the New Testament.
8. Are all the parts of the Bible inspired?

"For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost ..." (Leo the XIII in Providentissimus Deus, E.B. 124, 127)
9. Does the inspiration apply to the originals only, or to the translations also?

Both: It applies absolutely to the originals, and to the translations insofar as they are faithful to the originals.



The authority to determine the veracity of the books was the RCC.



Quote:

Roman Catholic

The Catholic Church holds the Bible as inspired by God, but does not view God as the direct author of the Bible, in the sense that He does not put a 'ready-made' book in the mind of the inspired person.[7]

wiki

 
Old 02-22-2012, 03:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Yes, I know that's what you believe. I don't. I don't believe any of them "made it." Still, I'm not out to bash Catholicism. I'll leave that to more interested parties.
The one thing we have assurance of Katz is that Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against His church.

His church has been in existence since the day of Pentecost.

All denominations, including catholics claim they can trace all the way back to Pentecost.

So the question becomes, what is the true church? How does one go about measuring? IMHO, if a group of people follow what the early church did, then they are the Lord's church. They don't need to be in a church building. They don't have to belong to a big organization.

God Bless,

Katie
 
Old 02-22-2012, 03:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Hi Katie:

That the Bible is the inspired word of God is part of the legacy that the RCC delivered to the reformers and to churches like yours.




The authority to determine the veracity of the books was the RCC.






wiki
Thanks Julian. I don't think of Wiki as official. Got something really official? Like Vatican or something else you feel is completely trustworthy?

God Bless,

Katie
 
Old 02-22-2012, 06:04 PM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,342,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Thanks Julian. I don't think of Wiki as official. Got something really official? Like Vatican or something else you feel is completely trustworthy?

God Bless,

Katie
Katie:

I usually try to quote non-Catholic sources because some think there may be a bias.



The Inspiration of Saint Matthew
Caravaggio (1602)
San Luigi dei Francesi, Rome

Here is proof that the Catholic Church thinks the Bible books are inspired.

Kathy it was all worked out for you folks at the onset and for the benefit of Christians like you and me. The RCC has done a few good things despite everything else.



PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION ONE
"I BELIEVE" - "WE BELIEVE"

CHAPTER TWO
GOD COMES TO MEET MAN
ARTICLE 3
SACRED SCRIPTURE

I. CHRIST - THE UNIQUE WORD OF SACRED SCRIPTURE
101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."63
102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:64
You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.65
103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God's Word and Christ's Body.66
104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God".67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68
II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE
105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69
"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70
106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71
107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72
108 Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living".73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74
III. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE
109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75
110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76
111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77
The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78
112 1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79

The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80
113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).
114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.
The senses of Scripture
115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83
117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".85
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86
118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:
The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87 119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88
But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.89
IV. THE CANON OF SCRIPTURE
120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.90 This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.91
The Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi.
The New Testament: the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the Acts of the Apostles, the Letters of St. Paul to the Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, the Letter to the Hebrews, the Letters of James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2 and 3 John, and Jude, and Revelation (the Apocalypse).

The Old Testament
121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.
122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,"94 the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."95
123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).
The New Testament
124 "The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament"96 which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.97
125 The Gospels are the heart of all the Scriptures "because they are our principal source for the life and teaching of the Incarnate Word, our Savior".98
126 We can distinguish three stages in the formation of the Gospels:
1. The life and teaching of Jesus. The Church holds firmly that the four Gospels, "whose historicity she unhesitatingly affirms, faithfully hand on what Jesus, the Son of God, while he lived among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation, until the day when he was taken up."99
2. The oral tradition. "For, after the ascension of the Lord, the apostles handed on to their hearers what he had said and done, but with that fuller understanding which they, instructed by the glorious events of Christ and enlightened by the Spirit of truth, now enjoyed."100
3. The written Gospels. "The sacred authors, in writing the four Gospels, selected certain of the many elements which had been handed on, either orally or already in written form; others they synthesized or explained with an eye to the situation of the churches, the while sustaining the form of preaching, but always in such a fashion that they have told us the honest truth about Jesus."101
127 The fourfold Gospel holds a unique place in the Church, as is evident both in the veneration which the liturgy accords it and in the surpassing attraction it has exercised on the saints at all times:
There is no doctrine which could be better, more precious and more splendid than the text of the Gospel. Behold and retain what our Lord and Master, Christ, has taught by his words and accomplished by his deeds.102 But above all it's the gospels that occupy my mind when I'm at prayer; my poor soul has so many needs, and yet this is the one thing needful. I'm always finding fresh lights there; hidden meanings which had meant nothing to me hitherto.103

The unity of the Old and New Testaments
128 The Church, as early as apostolic times,104 and then constantly in her Tradition, has illuminated the unity of the divine plan in the two Testaments through typology, which discerns in God's works of the Old Covenant prefigurations of what he accomplished in the fullness of time in the person of his incarnate Son.
129 Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself.105 Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament.106 As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.107
130 Typology indicates the dynamic movement toward the fulfillment of the divine plan when "God [will] be everything to everyone."108 Nor do the calling of the patriarchs and the exodus from Egypt, for example, lose their own value in God's plan, from the mere fact that they were intermediate stages.
V. SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH
131 "And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life."109 Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."110
132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."111
133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.112
IN BRIEF
134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, "because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ" (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2,8:PL 176,642: cf. ibid. 2,9:PL 176,642-643).
135 "The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired, they are truly the Word of God" (DV 24).
136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).
137 Interpretation of the inspired Scripture must be attentive above all to what God wants to reveal through the sacred authors for our salvation. What comes from the Spirit is not fully "understood except by the Spirit's action' (cf. Origen, Hom. in Ex. 4, 5: PG 12, 320).
138 The Church accepts and venerates as inspired the 46 books of the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New.
139 The four Gospels occupy a central place because Christ Jesus is their center.
140 The unity of the two Testaments proceeds from the unity of God's plan and his Revelation. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament fulfills the Old; the two shed light on each other; both are true Word of God.
141 "The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures as she venerated the Body of the Lord" (DV 21): both nourish and govern the whole Christian life. "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path" (Ps 119:105; cf. Is 50:4).

63 DV 13.
64 Cf. Heb 1:1-3.
65 St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 103,4,1:PL 37,1378; cf. Ps 104; Jn 1:1.
66 Cf. DV 21.
67 1 Thes 2:13; cf. DV 24.
68 DV 21.
69 DV 11.
70 DV 11; cf. Jn 20:31; 2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 1:19-21; 3:15-16.
71 DV 11.
72 DV 11.
73 St. Bernard, S. missus est hom. 4,11:PL 183,86.
74 Cf. Lk 24:45.
75 Cf. DV 12 § 1.
76 DV 12 § 2.
77 DV 12 § 3.
78 Cf. DV 12 § 4.
79 Cf. Lk 24:25-27,44-46.
80 St. Thomas Aquinas, Expos. in Ps. 21,11; cf. Ps 22:14.
81 Origen, Hom. in Lev. 5,5:PG 12,454D.
82 Cf. Rom 12:6.
83 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I, 1, 10, ad I.
84 Cf. 1 Cor 10:2.
85 1 Cor 10:11; cf. Heb 3:1-4:11.
86 Cf. Rev 21:1-22:5.
87 Lettera gesta docet, quid credas allegoria, moralis quid agas, quo tendas anagogia; Augustine of Dacia, Rotulus pugillaris, I: ed. A. Walz: Angelicum 6 (1929) 256.
88 DV 12 § 3.
89 St. Augustine, Contra epistolam Manichaei, 5,6:PL 42,176.
90 Cf. DV 8 § 3.
91 Cf. DS 179; 1334-1336; 1501-1504.
92 Cf. DV 14.
93 DV 15.
94 DV 15.
95 DV 15.
96 DV 17; cf. Rom 1:16.
97 Cf. DV 20.
98 DV 18.
99 DV 19; cf. Acts 1:1-2.
100 DV 19.
101 DV 19.
102 St. Caesaria the Younger to St. Richildis and St. Radegunde, SCh 345, 480.
103 St. Thérèse of Lisieux, ms. autob. A 83v.
104 Cf. 1 Cor 10:6,11; Heb 10:l; l Pet 3:21.
105 Cf. Mk 12:29-31
106 Cf. 1 Cor 5:6-8; 10:1-11.
107 Cf. St. Augustine, Quaest. in Hept. 2,73:PL 34,623; Cf. DV 16.
108 1 Cor 15:28.
109 DV 21.
110 DV 22.
111 DV 24.
112 DV 25; cf. Phil 3:8 and St. Jerome, Commentariorum in Isaiam libri xviii prol.:PL 24,17B.

 
Old 02-22-2012, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
The one thing we have assurance of Katz is that Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against His church.
Yes, that's precisely what He said. I don't believe you are interpreting the phrase "the gates of hell" in the same way as a first-century Jewish convert to Christianity, such as Peter, would have done, though. To most Christians today, "the gates of hell" has a far more sinister meaning that it would have had to Peter and the other Apostles.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 03:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Yes, that's precisely what He said. I don't believe you are interpreting the phrase "the gates of hell" in the same way as a first-century Jewish convert to Christianity, such as Peter, would have done, though. To most Christians today, "the gates of hell" has a far more sinister meaning that it would have had to Peter and the other Apostles.
Katz, I'm not sure what you mean. The only way I interpret "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" is that nothing, absolutely nothing will stand in the way of the Lord's church from continuing on until He comes again. I haven't thought too deeply on any particular meanings. Please share your thoughts about this.

God Bless,

Katie
 
Old 02-23-2012, 03:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Julian658;23100083]
133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.112

141 "The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures as she venerated the Body of the Lord" (DV 21): both nourish and govern the whole Christian life. "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path" (Ps 119:105; cf. Is 50:4).
Julian,

Thank you for posting this. I am happy to see the RCC's official position on the Bible. I especially like #133.

The only issue I had was with #141. The church says that the Bible and the church govern the christian life. There is no support for this statement in the Bible. According to God's word, the Bible is to be our authority, not the church. IOW, it is the Bible that sets the standard for the church, not the other way around.

Other than that, I was happy to see the RCC take a positive stand for the word of God. Now all I need to do is get you to get that Kindle out and start reading.

God Bless,

Katie
 
Old 02-23-2012, 04:50 AM
 
420 posts, read 805,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Julian,

Thank you for posting this. I am happy to see the RCC's official position on the Bible. I especially like #133.

The only issue I had was with #141. The church says that the Bible and the church govern the christian life. There is no support for this statement in the Bible. According to God's word, the Bible is to be our authority, not the church. IOW, it is the Bible that sets the standard for the church, not the other way around.

Other than that, I was happy to see the RCC take a positive stand for the word of God. Now all I need to do is get you to get that Kindle out and start reading.

God Bless,

Katie
The concept of "Sola Scriptura" is un-Biblical. The idea of the Bible setting the standard for the Church is impossible because there was no Bible for hundreds of years until the Church put it together and then dutifully protected its sanctity for over a thousand years until the present.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 05:45 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,342,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Julian,

Thank you for posting this. I am happy to see the RCC's official position on the Bible. I especially like #133.

The only issue I had was with #141. The church says that the Bible and the church govern the christian life. There is no support for this statement in the Bible. According to God's word, the Bible is to be our authority, not the church. IOW, it is the Bible that sets the standard for the church, not the other way around.

Other than that, I was happy to see the RCC take a positive stand for the word of God. Now all I need to do is get you to get that Kindle out and start reading.

God Bless,

Katie
According to the RCC the church came first, furthermore the church was founded by Christ and hence the church had the divine authority to determine if a Bible book was inspired and whether it belonged in the NT.

The NT may have been written between 50 and 110 AD, but copies were not widely available. Furthermore, many other gospels and books were written at the same time so the final canon of the NT was unknown.

The Church is infallible and had final word regarding the NT. Furthermore, the words may have been inspired, but God did not write it.

Sola Scriptura was not the Modus Operandi of the early church. Sola Scriptura became fashionable with Luther 1500 years later. The early church was Jewish and these Jewish men called themselves The Way.

The RCC puts a lot of weight on Sacred Oral Tradition and the info passed down by Apostolic Succession and then the NT came along.

Many things that could have ended in the NT were written into the church Catechism. The fist Catechism was the Didache probably written 50 AD. The Didache describes the mass, Eucharist, baptism, and encourages folks to say the "Our Father" during mass just like we do today. You need to study the text of the Didache which should have been in the NT, but was seen as Catechism of the 12 Apostles.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 06:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by PsychDoc View Post
The concept of "Sola Scriptura" is un-Biblical. The idea of the Bible setting the standard for the Church is impossible because there was no Bible for hundreds of years until the Church put it together and then dutifully protected its sanctity for over a thousand years until the present.
Yes I know that is what you believe. I believe differently. We need to agree to disagree on this point.

Kate
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