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I believe it is the Jews that view the Satan as the flesh...But, also if the Satan is evil and sinful, one must ask then how was he in the presence of Yehovaw in the Book of Job?...Nothing sinful is permitted in His presence, so how can this be?...Is it because the Satan and Lucifer are two different entities, and the Satan is a tool used by Yehovaw for the testing and shaping of mankind?...haSatan in the Hebrew means tester or adversary, kinda like a prosecuting attorney...
Job 1:6 And a day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah. And Satan also came among them.
Job 1:7 And Jehovah said to Satan, From where have you come? And Satan answered Jehovah and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And Jehovah said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job because there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil?
Job 1:9 And Satan answered Jehovah and said, Does Job fear God for nothing?
Job 1:10 Have You not made a hedge for him, and for his house, and for all that is his all around? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock have increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put out Your hand now, and touch against all that is his, and see if he will not then curse You to Your face.
Job 1:12 And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that is his is in your hand! Only, do not lay your hand on him. And Satan went out from the face of Jehovah.
How could this be???...HaSatan is before the very Face of Yehovaw...And not only that, but they are speaking to one another...Having a conversation...How is this???...
I believe it is the Jews that view the Satan as the flesh...But, also if the Satan is evil and sinful, one must ask then how was he in the presence of Yehovaw in the Book of Job?...Nothing sinful is permitted in His presence, so how can this be?...Is it because the Satan and Lucifer are two different entities, and the Satan is a tool used by Yehovaw for the testing and shaping of mankind?...haSatan in the Hebrew means tester or adversary, kinda like a prosecuting attorney...
Because in Judaism, Satan is God's divine prosecutor. He's part of the divine council who tempts and challenges humanity at God's command. He's not evil, and has no free will.
The evil, dualistic version of Satan developed later in Jewish mysticism following the Babylonian exile and the influence of Persian dualism. Satan is not evil in the Old Testament, particularly the early books like Job.
Because in Judaism, Satan is God's divine prosecutor. He's part of the divine council who tempts and challenges humanity at God's command. He's not evil, and has no free will.
The evil, dualistic version of Satan developed later in Jewish mysticism following the Babylonian exile and the influence of Persian dualism. Satan is not evil in the Old Testament, particularly the early books like Job.
Judaism is Christianity's heretage...In fact, I think it was the Gentiles to be grafted into Israel, not Isreal to be grafted into the Gentiles...It just came to me that that verse that people use that Satan is as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour might just be metaphorical for the senses are are all around us and we must distinguish which are good and which are not...If the Jews understood HaSatan as the flesh and desire, it might be that that verse is speaking in just that way, metaphor...That it is not an entity but our own fleshly desires that are attracted to the things that are 'roaming' around us and we should resist these temptations...Jews have said that man is responsible for his own actions...So, I think that HaSatan IS our own desires that are against Yehovaw Law...HaSatan is also 'rebellion', and it is our fleshly desires that rebel against the Law of Yehovaw...
I Notice no past war in heaven either. You hear it at churches that satan fought but i dont know about it. never heard of john milton, gotta check it out.
I believe that Satan, whether it is an entity or the carnal desires does just as God ordained. He created the waster to destroy. People have built a whole 'theory' around a few verses in Isaiah and Ezekiel.
There is mention of Eden in the same book as a town in either Ezekiel or Isaiah. I can't remember which one now and don't feel like looking it up. But this previous mention makes it highly unlikely that the author was talking about the Garden of Eden where Adam first lived.
This thought of a powerful angel fighting against God has its roots in Manicheism, I believe, where it is said that evil and good are both powerful forces which shall always exist. I'm pretty sure that when evil has accomplished its purpose, God will simply remove it from His universe.
Judaism is Christianity's heretage...In fact, I think it was the Gentiles to be grafted into Israel, not Isreal to be grafted into the Gentiles...It just came to me that that verse that people use that Satan is as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour might just be metaphorical for the senses are are all around us and we must distinguish which are good and which are not...If the Jews understood HaSatan as the flesh and desire, it might be that that verse is speaking in just that way, metaphor...That it is not an entity but our own fleshly desires that are attracted to the things that are 'roaming' around us and we should resist these temptations...Jews have said that man is responsible for his own actions...So, I think that HaSatan IS our own desires that are against Yehovaw Law...HaSatan is also 'rebellion', and it is our fleshly desires that rebel against the Law of Yehovaw...
~ Gentiles being grafted Into Israel is a false doctrine we've believed.
Gentiles "were grafted in Among them (in God's house) and With them
became a partaker of the root and the fatness of the Olive Tree." Rom.11:17
For God Said,
The Olive Tree is planted IN His House. - Jer.11:15,16
Not In Israel. -
Satan or Lucifer is a symbol of evil.
Nothing more.
You keep saying that Julian, but the Scriptures paint a different picture.
The serpent aka the Devil tempted Eve in the garden and then the 1st prophecy was given:
Gen. 3:
14 ¶ And YHVH God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; *upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
*upon thy belly.......this is a euphemism which means degregation. Similar to the English Fig. "he's a snake in the grass."
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Satan thought he had bruised Messiah's 'heel' on the cross. Messiah bruised the 'head' of satan when He resurrected from the dead:
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
And here:
Matt. 4:
1 ¶ Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
So either there really is a devil or Messiah was talking to Himself. And either there really is a devil or Messiah didn't "defeat" anyone. And last, there really is a devil or the prophecy of Gen. 3:15 was not fulfilled.
So, yes, there really is a devil; a defeated enemy none the less, but he truly exsisits.
Last edited by mshipmate; 03-21-2012 at 05:19 PM..
Along came the tempter; the lust of the eyes (understanding of the mind), lust of the flesh (a heart of emotion) and the pride of life (the desires of the will).
Thus, while the first Adam conceded to all that is in the world, the second Adam stood his ground against the natural disposition or temperament of the soul.
The Satan of recent thought is not in the ‘Old Testament’. The word ‘Satan’ just means an adversary.
Here’s an excerpt from Jeffrey Geoghegan and Michael Homan’s book, “The Bible for Dummies”:
Quote:
Who Is Satan According to the Bible?
By Jeffrey Geoghegan and Michael Homan
Satan (or the Devil) appears in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. Surprisingly, however, most of what people believe about Satan doesn't come from the Bible. For instance, the common image of Satan as a forked-tailed, horned demon with a goat's body from the waist down derives more from the Greek god Pan than anything biblical. What, then, does the Bible say about Satan?
The Hebrew name Satan (pronounced SA-tan) actually means "adversary," and most often in the Hebrew Bible it is prefaced by the direct object, meaning "the adversary" rather than a distinct personal name. Satan's role grows more developed both in scope and magnitude through time, and, thus, in the earlier writings of the Hebrew Bible, Satan exists not so much as an individual character but as an adversarial position occupied by both humans and angels.
For example, the word satan is used for a human potential adversary in the Philistine army (1 Samuel 29:4), and two kings God raise to be Solomon's adversaries (1 Kings 11:14, 23). An angel of the LORD is called satan when he blocks the path of Balaam (Numbers 22:22, 32). Satan becomes more developed as a character in later writings of the Hebrew Bible, though he appears only a few times. He at times causes humans to do bad things, as he incites King David to conduct a census (1 Chronicles 21:1).
Satan also acts as a heavenly prosecuting attorney, bringing charges against sinners before God's heavenly court. For example, in Psalm 109:6 the author asks Satan to bring an enemy to trial. Also in Zechariah 3:1-2, Satan stands at the right hand of an angel to bring charges against the High Priest. Satan has a similar role in the opening chapter of Job, where he appears in the heavenly court with the sons of God to bring charges against Job.
In the New Testament, Satan plays a much larger role. Here Satan, also frequently called the Devil (from Greek diabolos, also meaning "adversary") is a proper name for the one who opposes God. Satan is also identified in the New Testament with the deceitful serpent in Eden, as well as many other names including Belial, the evil one, the ruler of the demons, the enemy, the ruler of this world, and Beelzebul (Beelzebub, meaning "Lord of the flies," is a pun on the name Beelzebul, meaning "Prince Baal").
Many scholars attribute Satan's development from an adversary to the archenemy of God to the influence of the Persian religion Zoroastrianism. This religion is a lot like Star Wars, in which two opposing forces, one good and the other evil, struggle for control of the universe. Yet, the New Testament preserves the Hebrew Bible's notion of Satan as far inferior to God and needing to get God's permission before "raising hell" on earth (see, for example, Luke 22:31). Following the biblical period, Medieval theologians reinterpreted passages such as Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, in which Babylonian and Phoenician kings are condemned for pride, as descriptions about Satan. In fact, the name Lucifer comes from a Latin translation of Isaiah 14:12, in which the Babylonian king is linked to a fallen Morning Star, called in Latin lucern ferre ("bearer of light").
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