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Let me ask you this: are you talking about the earthly consequences of your fathers sins? That is what Ezekiel and Exodus refer to. Or are you saying we will be judged for the sins of our fathers during judgment day?
There is a difference.
The earthly effects of other people's mistakes can be felt by following generations, as was the case in Israel regarding the children who were born into slavery because their parents had abandoned God.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 03-23-2012 at 06:57 AM..
Christ atonement is not by gazing at the cross. It is by Christ putting down sin in your own flesh by His Spirit in you. I say there are those Christians that believe they are saved because of Jesus and those that are saved BY Jesus.
Excuse me? Did I say anything to the affect that "Christ's atonement is by gazing at the cross"? You did not even begin to address my question.
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Let's not pollute this subject and introduce a straw man by saying what a brother or sister would do. Original sin is about taking on the sins of our father Adam and therefore sins of a father to son relationship. Not their brother or sister.
I can't decide whether you really are incapable of understanding plain English or whether you've just gone into panic mode and are trying to find a way out of an uncomfortable situation. My comment was not even close to being a straw man; I don't think you even know what a straw man it! I was saying that no decent father would punish one of his children for something another of his children did. Likewise, our perfect Father in Heaven would not punish us for something someone else did 6000 years ago -- particularly not since Adam's sin was forgiven by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We have enough sins of our own to pay be held responsible for, and we need to repent of those sins and look to Jesus Christ's sacrifice to redeem us of them.
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Jesus never said the child is free from sin. They are guiltless in the practice of sin because they have no knowledge of the law which dictates sin. The child is humble in the face of its parent.
If a child is "guiltless in the practice of sin," why would God punish him? What kind of God would punish a tiny baby for something Adam did?
The sin they are guilty of is the sin of their father Adam. Yes, we are all guilty of murder. We all murdered Jesus. If you don't claim to have then you haven't embraced the Spiritual Message of your need to kill the passover lamb (Jesus).
But let me ask you - what sin is acceptable to God that allows you to enter His Kingdom? If you say none, then what matter is it if the offense is murder or rape, or theft, etc... if all have the consequence of alienation from the Kingdom of Heaven? and all have the wage of death?
My understanding of the topic is this:
1) Despite what Christians later read into the Old Testament, the Jews themselves did not themselves believe in original sin. I would like to hear more on this topic from the Jewish perspective.
2) My understanding is that the Christian doctrine of original sin is primarily a product of Augustine, whose name is associated with several doctrines of questionable origin.
In answer to the question you pose in your second paragraph, since all people sin, there are only two possibilities - forgiveness or purgatory. Is "both" a third choice?
I thought it redeemed us. Adam sinned; Jesus sacrificed His life to pay the debt incurred by that sin, and babies are still born guilty of it. That doesn't make sense to me.
Well who did it work for? If human beings are still being held accountable for Adam's sin 6000 years after the fact, it would appear that, while Jesus' sacrifice may have redeemed the sins of some, it somehow didn't redeem Adam. If it had redeemed Adam, we wouldn't still be being deemed guilty of something he did.
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Why does every single human sin?
Every human being does not sin. Babies do not sin. They are incapable of making sinful choices.
Adults all sin from time to time because they inherited Adam's sinful nature. That doesn't mean they inherited his guilt. We are punished for our own sins if we don't repent and accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice on our behalf. God is only holding us accountable for our own sins, and we all have plenty of them. We are predisposed to sin because we are mortal beings. We are guilty of sin when we sin, not at the moment of birth.
David wasn't saying all men are born with sin and are guilty before God.
David was simply saying he was born into a sinful world.
I disagree.
Psalm 51
1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are proved right when you speak
and justified when you judge.
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
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Originally Posted by mshipmate
Furthermore, God defines sin for us. He doesn't say it's inherited, nor something we are born with.
Wrong. See above. Also, see Romans 5:12
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Originally Posted by mshipmate
When asked, "Lord, what is sin?" God answers: "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4).
So we see sin is not something we are born with. It's something we do! By breaking God's law; we sin.
I think this is what the OP is saying. We inherit the sin nature of out fathers, not the actual sins the father has committed. We all must repent and turn to God, or the sin nature will lead us to destruction. It is a task every living person must perform for salvation.
Well who did it work for? If human beings are still being held accountable for Adam's sin 6000 years after the fact, it would appear that, while Jesus' sacrifice may have redeemed the sins of some, it somehow didn't redeem Adam. If it had redeemed Adam, we wouldn't still be being deemed guilty of something he did.
We are not held accountable for Adam's sin. When Adam (our ancestor) sinned, he became a sinner. That "gene" was passed down to everyone who came after.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
Every human being does not sin. Babies do not sin. They are incapable of making sinful choices.
Anyone who lives past a few months will exhibit the sin nature we are all born with. See above.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
Adults all sin from time to time because they inherited Adam's sinful nature. That doesn't mean they inherited his guilt. We are punished for our own sins if we don't repent and accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice on our behalf. God is only holding us accountable for our own sins, and we all have plenty of them.
Agreed. I think that's what I've been saying.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
We are predisposed to sin because we are mortal beings. We are guilty of sin when we sin, not at the moment of birth.
Not according to Scripture.
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Adam sinned; Jesus sacrificed His life to pay the debt incurred by that sin, and babies are still born guilty of it. That doesn't make sense to me.
