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Good post Katie. I think the texts you cited answer the question. God has shown mercy to the world by sending His Son to earn eternal salvation for all mankind. However, for those who rebel, refuse to repent, and continue to rebel against God, well, the texts you cited pretty much answer the question.
I think this is what I'm trying to say. God hates the evil within people. Can we agree on this?
I don't think we can hate sinners. We can hate the evil within them just as we hate it within ourselves, but we're commanded to love our enemies and to love ourselves.
Katie
Yes, we can agree on that. The wrath of God burns against the sin within his people. He knows we are in a weakened state and that we are in a battle with the world, the flesh and the devil (or spirit of anti-Christ). However, we read in Romans, "If God be for us, who can be against us?". And also a list of all the things that can never separate us from the love of God....
Romans Chapter 8:35
Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36Just as it is written,
“for your sake we are being put to death all day long we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Here is one scripture passage where God separates sin from sinner.
Zepheniah 3:5 But the just Lord is in the midst of her, and he will never do an unjust thing: morning by morning he will bring out his judgment to the light, and it is not hidden, and he knows not injustice by extortion, nor injustice in strife. 6 I have brought down the proud with destruction; their corners are destroyed: I will make their ways completely waste, so that none shall go through: their cities are come to an end, by reason of no man living or dwelling in them. 7 I said, But do ye fear me, and receive instruction, and ye shall not be cut off from the face of the land for all the vengeance I have brought upon her: prepare thou, rise early: all their produce is spoilt.
8 Therefore wait upon me, saith the Lord, until the day when I rise up for a witness: because my judgment shall be on the gatherings of the nations, to draw to me kings, to pour out upon them all my fierce anger: for the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the peoples a tongue for her generation, that all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve him under one yoke. 10 From the boundaries of the rivers of Ethiopia will I receive my dispersed ones; they shall offer sacrifices to me. 11 In that day thou shalt not be ashamed of all thy practices, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then will I take away from thee thy disdainful pride, and thou shalt no more magnify thyself upon my holy mountain. 12 And I will leave in thee a meek and lowly people; 13 and the remnant of Israel shall fear the name of the Lord, and shall do no iniquity, neither shall they speak vanity; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed, and lie down, and there shall be none to terrify them.
14 Rejoice, O daughter of Sion; cry aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem; rejoice and delight thyself with all thine heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 The Lord has taken away thine iniquities, he has ransomed thee from the hand of thine enemies: the Lord, the King of Israel, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
Here is one scripture passage where God separates sin from sinner.
Zepheniah 3:5 But the just Lord is in the midst of her, and he will never do an unjust thing: morning by morning he will bring out his judgment to the light, and it is not hidden, and he knows not injustice by extortion, nor injustice in strife. 6 I have brought down the proud with destruction; their corners are destroyed: I will make their ways completely waste, so that none shall go through: their cities are come to an end, by reason of no man living or dwelling in them. 7 I said, But do ye fear me, and receive instruction, and ye shall not be cut off from the face of the land for all the vengeance I have brought upon her: prepare thou, rise early: all their produce is spoilt.
8 Therefore wait upon me, saith the Lord, until the day when I rise up for a witness: because my judgment shall be on the gatherings of the nations, to draw to me kings, to pour out upon them all my fierce anger: for the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the peoples a tongue for her generation, that all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve him under one yoke. 10 From the boundaries of the rivers of Ethiopia will I receive my dispersed ones; they shall offer sacrifices to me. 11 In that day thou shalt not be ashamed ofall thy practices, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then will I take away from thee thy disdainful pride, and thou shalt no more magnify thyself upon my holy mountain. 12 And I will leave in thee a meek and lowly people; 13 and the remnant of Israel shall fear the name of the Lord, and shall do no iniquity, neither shall they speak vanity; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed, and lie down, and there shall be none to terrify them.
14 Rejoice, O daughter of Sion; cry aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem; rejoice and delight thyself with all thine heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 The Lord has taken away thine iniquities, he has ransomed thee from the hand of thine enemies: the Lord, the King of Israel, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
Praise God! This is the stuff I love to read! (Sometimes I wonder how many can see the beauty in passages like these..)
A sinner is someone who transgresses the Law of God...otherwise called the Ten Commandments....for sin is the transgression of the law. Therefore, those who willfully transgress the law of God live in their iniquities...and God hates iniquity too....after all, His word says that those who willfully transgress the law of God, sins...and is a child of the devil...their father is the father of lies.
Proverbs 6 names all the things God hates...and they are all found in the Ten Commandments, not to do.....
Proverbs 6:
1My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger,
2Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth. 3Do this now, my son, and deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend. 4Give not sleep to thine eyes, nor slumber to thine eyelids. 5Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler. 6Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: 7Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, 8Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. 9How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? 10Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: 11So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man. 12A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. 13He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; 14Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. 15Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.
16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. 20My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: 21Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck. 22When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and when thou awakest, it shall talk with thee. 23For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: 24To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman. 25Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids. 26For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life. 27Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? 28Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned? 29So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent. 30Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry; 31But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house. 32But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul. 33A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away. 34For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance. 35He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts.
Verna your self justification is nothing short of you being blind to yourself
If you break the commandment once you might as well have broken all of them, and in doing so you become the sinner you believe God hates. If you think God is thinking this is good old Verna when you break the commandment you are kidding yourself, and if you think He's thinking I will let this go this time because she ignorantly broke the commandment and not willingly you are kidding yourself too.
Do not even pretend you do not break the commandment,willingly or ignorantly. Either way you have broken it. You fell short either ignorantly or willingly, and you become the sinner you beleve God hates. There is freedom in believing that God loves you in spite of your sin. It will take you one step further in your walk with God too, you will be able to love those who do not agree with you, not just those who do or look like they met have a leaning or vulnerable to how you believe . The only way for you to come from under the law that condemns you, is believe He loves you by faith even though you have and do fall short of the commandment.
By the way Verna when you break the commandment I do not believe God hates you.
I think maybe we try to attribute our definition of hate to the hate that is attributed to God in the scriptures I referenced. We think of the word in human terms and fail to understand it in spiritual terms.
This is a question I am still wrestling with.
I do know this. God hates sin. He cannot look upon it. How can He separate sin and sinner? I think there is much we don't understand about the mind of God.
Katie
God does hates sin, there is no question about that. But God doesn't hate the work He does, and part of that work was to give life to each of us and His purpose of doing that will definately stand for He fails not.
Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
Yes, we can agree on that. The wrath of God burns against the sin within his people. He knows we are in a weakened state and that we are in a battle with the world, the flesh and the devil (or spirit of anti-Christ). However, we read in Romans, "If God be for us, who can be against us?". And also a list of all the things that can never separate us from the love of God....
Romans Chapter 8:35
Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36Just as it is written,
“for your sake we are being put to death all day long we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I'm glad we can agree on something.
You cited Romans 8:35 "Who will separate us from the love of Christ."
Paul is speaking to christians, not unbelievers here.
You cited Romans 8:35 "Who will separate us from the love of Christ."
Paul is speaking to christians, not unbelievers here.
Sin does separate us from God. Isaiah 59:1-2
What sin (not God) does Katie is condemn your conscience, I am sure you agree that when you sin your conscience is initially condemned,where we disagree is where that condemnation comes from. Unless we have faith in His Love and faithfulness towards us we will remain in that state of condemnation, we will confess sin and remain under condemnation. It's faith in His love and faithfulness that lifts the condemnation from us.
A condemned conscience not God tells us we are separated from him, it draws the veil that has been torn. We can boldly let go of the condemned state of being by faith in His blood( His demonstration of Love) and live with a clear conscience.
God is not over there and we are over here. He is in us all, that is where we meet Him. We do not find him in the church, the bible or any other place but within us.
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
being cursed by God isn't lovey dovey .... is it
John 3:36
..... whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
Then of course the word "condemned" ....
Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Matthew 23:33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned;
John 5:29
..those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
Amen... Twin,
Here is also a couple more Scripture in the NT....
■“Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions”; Hebrews 1:8-9
■"As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. Romans 9:13 (Quoting Malachi 1:3 where God is talking about Esau’s descendants to make a point about God loving someone, namely us Gentiles.)
■“But you have this in your favor: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. ” ‘ “Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the victor I will give the right to eat from the tree of life that is in the garden of God.” ‘ Rev. 2:6-7
And also Katie here are few more to add along with your list of Scripture....
■“Into your hands I commend my spirit; you will redeem me, LORD, faithful God. You hate those who serve worthless idols, but I trust in the LORD.” Psalm 31:5-6
■“Your throne, O God, stands forever; your royal scepter is a scepter for justice. You love justice and hate wrongdoing; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellow kings. Psalm 45:6-7
■“For I hate divorce, says the LORD, the God of Israel, And covering one’s garment with injustice, says the LORD of hosts; You must then safeguard life that is your own, and not break faith.” Malachi 2:16
There are so many Scripture telling us what God hates, who God hates, and why the Lord God hates....
■“But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness.” Malachi 1:3
■“You shall not plant for yourself any tree, as a wooden image, near the altar which you build for yourself to the Lord your God. You shall not set up a sacred pillar, which the Lord your God hates." Deuteronomy 16:21-22
■“Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it? “I hate, I despise your feast days, and I do not savor your sacred assemblies. Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them, nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings." Amos 5:20-22
■“Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments; and He repays those who hate Him to their face, to destroy them. He will not be slack with him who hates Him; He will repay him to his face.
Therefore you shall keep the commandment, the statutes, and the judgments which I command you today, to observe them." Deuteronomy 7:9-11
Good post Katie. I think the texts you cited answer the question. God has shown mercy to the world by sending His Son to earn eternal salvation for all mankind. However, for those who rebel, refuse to repent, and continue to rebel against God, well, the texts you cited pretty much answer the question.
Read Psalm 107. it's about ones God calls the "redeemed of the Lord". What happens to them before they are redeemed or saved?
1. God gives them His word (Psalm 107:11)
2. They rebel against God's word (Psalm 107:11)
3. That makes them "sinners" (Psalm 107:17)
4. Therefore God "hates" them per Katie's verses ("Thou dost hate all who do iniquity")
5. God brings evil and trouble upon them (Psalm 107:12, 25, 27, 33)
6. They realize they are in trouble and need God and cry for mercy (Psalm 107:6, 13, 19, 28)
7. God saves them, redeems them from the hand of the enemy (Psalm 107:7, 14, 20, 29)
So God ultimately saves those He supposedly "hated". So God doesn't hate the way humans hate. God appears as an enemy in order to reform and ultimately bring good upon sinners whom he "hates".
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 05-09-2012 at 09:41 AM..
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