Once & For All: Romans 5:18 vs 2 Thess 1:9 (godless, Deuteronomy, believe)

[legoman]

Originally Posted by DRob4JC

When you have to change what Jesus said to validate your theology... I see that and run from it.

DRob4JC, the translators already did this. They changed what Jesus said, by the simple fact that Jesus did not speak English. Even if they were trying their very best, it is still impossible to have a perfect translation. Time, culture, figures of speech, slang, idiom, metaphor, etc. do not translate well at all.

So we must come to admit that translation also involves interpretation. And therein lies the problem.

Is this right?
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Or is this the right?
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by legoman

Here, I found a place I can cut and paste this from. This is what Jesus said:

αἰώνιος κόλασις

And I suppose Jesus may not have even said this, as some say Jesus spoke all this in Aramaic.
So another layer of obfuscation is added.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by DRob4JC

You keep concerning yourself with the viewpoints of others. Doesn't matter. What does the Holy Spirit tell you? And are you listening to Him?



If you posses the Holy Spirit, you have the ability to properly interpret the Bible.

That's not true. Millions of Christians have the Holy Spirit and there are as many opinions of what happens to a soul after death as there are stars in the sky (all based on the "infallible" Holy Scriptures, I might add). So if the Holy Spirit is guiding all these people why do they all disagree with each other?

Originally Posted by DRob4JC

This is nowhere in the Bible. It is as you said - Legoman's point, and a leap of logic.

Well, you say tomato and I say tomahto. So which of us is correct? Don't you see, without an objective clearly comprehensible verse that leaves no doubt, it's just a case of "I'm right. No, I'm right." Like I said, if Paul had written, "So one act of Christ leads to justification and life for all men, but no man receives this justification and life unless He accepts Christ as his savior" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by DRob4JC

This is nowhere in the Bible. It is as you said - Legoman's point, and a leap of logic.

Its nowhere in the bible? I just showed you where it is, it is in Matt 25:46! Eonian kolasis. Go look up meanings for "kolasis":

1. correction, punishment, penalty

And indeed it is all of those. It is a penalty. It is a punishment. And it is also correction.

It is punishment or chastisement for the purpose of correction - it shows the wisdom of God's judgments. Want another reference to this idea of judgment in the bible? There are hundreds of them, but here is a good one:

Isaiah 26:9 for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

See that? When God judges people, they learn! What do they learn? RIGHTEOUSNESS. ie. they are corrected.
This is the purpose of God's judgment. Not to make them pay forever. But to make them learn.

It is a good and beautiful thing, which is why all will rejoice in God's judgments.
Psalm 96:13 Let all creation rejoice before the Lord, for he comes,
he comes to judge the earth.

God will judge all the earth, and all creation will rejoice, because ALL will learn righteousness.

[svenM]

I would render 2 Thes 1:9 thus:

who shall incur the jugdment of perpetual devastation from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength

this leaves interpreation from a merely earthly temporal punishment to annihilation up to everlasting torment, however this verse is not decisive on the subject in my opinion, as it is ambiguous

[DRob4JC]

Originally Posted by legoman

DRob4JC, there should be no dispute on this. Jesus DID NOT use the term "eternal punishment". Jesus did not speak those words at all. Jesus did not speak English. Can you acknowledge and agree here? Jesus did not say "eternal punishment".

What Jesus did do, was speak words, transliterated as, aionios kolassin. I use the transliterated words because I'm not handy with a Greek keyboard. But hopefully you see the point.

The question is, what does "aionios kolassin" mean?

Here it is. We have a problem. Is this the right translation? This is from a very popular translation.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Or is this the right translation? This is from another translation, maybe not quite as popular, that has done much research in trying to be as accurate as possible.
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

We don't just get to pick one and throw the other one away, without first investigating and studying, and taking into account the other very plain scriptures in the bible that show God's intention and plan to save all people.

This is important. I'm not changing the words of Jesus. And please don't claim I find fault with the translators, as if that is some great wrong, because YOU ALSO FIND FAULT WITH THE TRANSLATORS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm quite certain you find fault with the second translation. Yet it is actually the more accurate translation if you study it out. And it doesn't conflict with the many verses that show Gods purpose and intention to save all people.

No one said the search for truth is easy.

You can pick your fight with the translators all you want. There's too many other scriptures to get caught up with one verse - and there is no issue with Jesus saying eternal punishment, or everlasting punishment, or kolasin aiwnion. It's all the same idea.

Regarding the red above... sure I do. The Holy Spirit has not prompted me towards another translation. There's no need for me to examine every translation that comes into being.

There is no plan to save all people. The death of Christ reconciled all people back to God, but they remain unclean in themselves and unfit to dwell with God unless through faith they receive the Holy Spirit. People need to be cleansed by the presence of the Spirit and dwell with the Son to have eternal life.

[DRob4JC]

Originally Posted by legoman

DRob4JC, the translators already did this. They changed what Jesus said, by the simple fact that Jesus did not speak English. Even if they were trying their very best, it is still impossible to have a perfect translation. Time, culture, figures of speech, slang, idiom, metaphor, etc. do not translate well at all.

So we must come to admit that translation also involves interpretation. And therein lies the problem.

Is this right?
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Or is this the right?
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

The first one is correct - since you are asking.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by svenM

2 Thes 1:9....is ambiguous

My point exactly. Paul may have been a great intellect and all but when it came to writing his thoughts down in a comprehensive, intelligible way he.......oh, I hate this word, but it does get the point across......sucked!

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Joe Bob

No problem here at all. I really don't see how you can have an issue here.

Those who do not know Him "shall be punished with everlasting destruction ".

Now Romans 5:18 simply say's that by the sin of Adam all men and by the righteousness of Jesus the Free Gift has come upon all men. That does not mean all men will accept that Free Gift but it is available to all men.

Right. It is very simple. Maybe the OP is not interested in seeing the harmony

[Jimmy Joe Bob]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

My point exactly. Paul may have been a great intellect and all but when it came to writing his thoughts down in a comprehensive, intelligible way he.......oh, I hate this word, but it does get the point across......sucked!

Maybe it's just your comprehension just.......well.....Sucks!