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Theologians who believe in eternal torment place the estimate of non-believing humanity and unsaved "Christians" at somewhere between 90-99%. 90% is probably generous, but the overwhelming part of humanity is non-Christian.
Interesting. Do you have a link to these 'studies'?
That's not true. Millions of Christians have the Holy Spirit and there are as many opinions of what happens to a soul after death as there are stars in the sky (all based on the "infallible" Holy Scriptures, I might add). So if the Holy Spirit is guiding all these people why do they all disagree with each other?
It is true. The ability is there. Whether or not they use that ability of the Holy Spirit is a different story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Well, you say tomato and I say tomahto. So which of us is correct? Don't you see, without an objective clearly comprehensible verse that leaves no doubt, it's just a case of "I'm right. No, I'm right." Like I said, if Paul had written, "So one act of Christ leads to justification and life for all men, but no man receives this justification and life unless He accepts Christ as his savior" we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Again...
2 Peter 1:20 - But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
I highlight the red above. Look at what you wrote... "one act leads to justification and life for all men, but no man receives this justification"... that makes no sense. How can all men receive justification and no man receives justification at the same time?
The "one act" that you mention is the death of Christ. That's Romans 5:18 - "through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." You are confusing the terms. Justification IS NOT salvation. This is salvation...
Romans 8:11 - if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Now, let’s say that one in ten people are genuine born-again Believers. We are clearly told in Matthew 7:14 that few people ever make it to heaven!, “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT” (Matthew 7:14; Luke 13:23,24).
Consider the billion people in China who know not the Lord Jesus Christ! Consider the countless hundreds of millions of Arabs (Islamic Muslims) who worship Allah and the prophet Mohammed. Consider the billion Catholics around the world that worship Mary and are trying to earn their way into Heaven through the keeping of the Seven-Sacraments and good works.
On and on, religion and more religion! Countless billions of people are trusting in their religion to save them instead of the Lord Jesus Christ. Surely, nine out of ten people in this wicked world are bound for a Godless, eternal hell. I have no doubts whatsoever that 90% of the people in this world are going to Hell. Why? For one simple reason friend, they do not have the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matt 22
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Most people take these verses to be talking about heaven/hell, and conclude that few make it to heaven. I've seen people say 'few' means from 25% down to 1% or less.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matt 22
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Most people take these verses to be talking about heaven/hell, and conclude that few make it to heaven. I've seen people say 'few' means from 25% down to 1% or less.
More than half would not be 'few', nor would 49%.
I live in a pretty crowded city and when I'm in a large crowd I look out at everyone and try to guesstimate, based on what I see them doing, whether they have a deep abiding relationship with Jesus. What I see is not encouraging to say the least. To say the most, I'd have to guess that not one does. If, by eternal tormentist's interpretation of the Bible, this is God's victory over satan---well, to a rational person it would look like nothing less than an absolute unmitigated disaster for God.
Let's get this settled once and for all and put an end to this madness. If the scriptures are inspired then these two verse should harmonize. We shouldn't have to use lame excuses like, "Well, we have to look at the entire Bible in context." Or "We have to put 2 Thessalonians 1:9 with Psalm 32:4 and then look at Deuteronomy 34:11-13 and see what Malachi 2:1 and Haggai 3:12 say, bla bla bla. No computer on earth can harmonize 31,240 verses that way.
Let's just take these two seemingly contrasting passages written by the same author, Paul. My challenge to both the universalists and the eternal tormentists is to simply harmonize them.
Universalists, explain why 2 Thess. 1:9 means all will be saved.
Eternal tormentists, explain why Romans 5:18 means eternal torment.
If these two verses cannot be harmonized then the scriptures are not inspired, pure and simple. If nobody attempts to do it we will understand the situation: Paul either was a schizophrenic nutjob or the scriptures have been severely tampered with. Nobody has to bother to argue this conclusion. It is evident on its face.
2 Thess. 1:9:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
"everlasting" there is aionios which means that this "destruction" is destruction that exists and will continue to exist beyond the present age. Aionios being an adjective that describes something that shall continue beyond the present age (aion). Aionios doesn't address the lengh of duration though. When aionios is used the duration beyond the present age boundry is concealed from us. We don't know how far off that duration is - much like looking over the horizon.
This means some will continue to experience the destruction of their evil nature after the coming of Christ in His Glory.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matt 22
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Most people take these verses to be talking about heaven/hell, and conclude that few make it to heaven. I've seen people say 'few' means from 25% down to 1% or less.
More than half would not be 'few', nor would 49%.
If they use those verses to say that few shall EVER be saved then they have misinterpreted the verses. After all, anyone with a Greek Grammar parser can look up and find that the text is saying few are finding it (present tense) not future tense like many ETers have wronged. So a better translation of the verse is this one from the YLT:
Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!
Notice now that the verses shows that FEW were finding it (Present Tense) and NOT what many try to thrust upon the meaning of that verse to have us think that FEW shall EVER Find it (Future tense).
If they use those verses to say that few shall EVER be saved then they have misinterpreted the verses. After all, anyone with a Greek Grammar parser can look up and find that the text is saying few are finding it (present tense) not future tense like many ETers have wronged. So a better translation of the verse is this one from the YLT:
Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!
Notice now that the verses shows that FEW were finding it (Present Tense) and NOT what many try to thrust upon the meaning of that verse to have us think that FEW shall EVER Find it (Future tense).
If they use those verses to say that few shall EVER be saved then they have misinterpreted the verses. After all, anyone with a Greek Grammar parser can look up and find that the text is saying few are finding it (present tense) not future tense like many ETers have wronged. So a better translation of the verse is this one from the YLT:
Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!
Notice now that the verses shows that FEW were finding it (Present Tense) and NOT what many try to thrust upon the meaning of that verse to have us think that FEW shall EVER Find it (Future tense).
Excellent point!
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Holy Scriptures, I might add). So if the Holy Spirit is guiding all these people why do they all disagree with each other?
