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You continue base your theology on human reasoning instead of trusting the Word.
If you wanted God the be the best you would put your viewpoints aside and let Him (in your mind) do want He is sovereignly purposed to do - whether you like the results or not.
All you eternal tormentists do when faced with the inevitable questions I posed is to hide behind that same old lame excuse "Well, who are you going to believe, God's word or your lyin' eyes?" It's all the more tragic because you guys absolutely refuse to step beyond the absurdity of what you've been taught for some 1500 years by evil corrupt theologians like Augustine and ask yourself some rational questions that might test your warped beliefs for even a few minutes. Again, I pose the question and this time try to provide a rational answer if you dare: if you saw a parent with twenty children and nineteen of them ended up in prison, death row and skid row as bums, prostitutes and drug addicts would you question their parenting skills in the slightest? Would you think even remotely that they might have been a little deficient in their God-given duties to raise morally upright, ethical children? If your answer is no, then you have some serious problems with your theology and I don't care what you think is written in the Bible---it's clearly wrong.
There's something incredibly dismal, crass, sick and evil about a redemption plan designed by God that fails 90% of humanity and lets them burn in hell for all eternity. Any clear-minded person who can think for himself instead of spouting what he's been spoon-fed by a corrupt church system could see something monstrously wrong with this kind of a salvation plan from a mile off. But if you insist on painting God as the biggest failure in the universe, unable with all His power to overcome man's sinful bent--even men who has never even heard the name of Jesus--then go right on thinking that. But your numbers are dwindling fast and I'll tell you why: because no televangelist or preacher with one eye on the tithe basket, and they ALL have their eyes on the tithing basket these days, dares even mention the subject--that's how radioactive the topic of eternal torment is in modern society. They know that by even broaching eternal torment they would empty their Church out faster than than someone yelling, "Fire!" You know it and I know it.
All you eternal tormentists do when faced with the inevitable questions I posed is to hide behind that same old lame excuse "Well, who are you going to believe, God's word or your lyin' eyes?" It's all the more tragic because you guys absolutely refuse to step beyond the absurdity of what you've been taught for some 1500 years by evil corrupt theologians like Augustine and ask yourself some rational questions that might test your warped beliefs for even a few minutes. Again, I pose the question and this time try to provide a rational answer if you dare: if you saw a parent with twenty children and nineteen of them ended up in prison, death row and skid row as bums, prostitutes and drug addicts would you question their parenting skills in the slightest? Would you think even remotely that they might have been a little deficient in their God-given duties to raise morally upright, ethical children? If your answer is no, then you have some serious problems with your theology and I don't care what you think is written in the Bible---it's clearly wrong.
There's something incredibly dismal, crass, sick and evil about a redemption plan designed by God that fails 90% of humanity and lets them burn in hell for all eternity. Any clear-minded person who can think for himself instead of spouting what he's been spoon-fed by a corrupt church system could see something monstrously wrong with this kind of a salvation plan from a mile off. But if you insist on painting God as the biggest failure in the universe, unable with all His power to overcome man's sinful bent--even men who has never even heard the name of Jesus--then go right on thinking that. But your numbers are dwindling fast and I'll tell you why: because no televangelist or preacher with one eye on the tithe basket, and they ALL have their eyes on the tithing basket these days, dares even mention the subject--that's how radioactive the topic of eternal torment is in modern society. They know that by even broaching eternal torment they would empty their Church out faster than than someone yelling, "Fire!" You know it and I know it.
All you eternal tormentists do when faced with the inevitable questions I posed is to hide behind that same old lame excuse "Well, who are you going to believe, God's word or your lyin' eyes?" It's all the more tragic because you guys absolutely refuse to step beyond the absurdity of what you've been taught for some 1500 years by evil corrupt theologians like Augustine and ask yourself some rational questions that might test your warped beliefs for even a few minutes. Again, I pose the question and this time try to provide a rational answer if you dare: if you saw a parent with twenty children and nineteen of them ended up in prison, death row and skid row as bums, prostitutes and drug addicts would you question their parenting skills in the slightest? Would you think even remotely that they might have been a little deficient in their God-given duties to raise morally upright, ethical children? If your answer is no, then you have some serious problems with your theology and I don't care what you think is written in the Bible---it's clearly wrong.
To answer your question - of course the parenting is questionable - but your analogy is flawed.
God's children become his children by faith. And those who are his children will inherit the promises set forth in the Bible and will dwell with the Father and Son after life on earth.
1 John 5:1 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,...
Those who are not his children are His enemies.
Romans 5:10 - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
1 Corinthians 15:25 - For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
Jesus' death was done for His enemies - but they are still enemies until they are saved through faith.
So your analogy is flawed because all of humanity are not God's children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
There's something incredibly dismal, crass, sick and evil about a redemption plan designed by God that fails 90% of humanity and lets them burn in hell for all eternity. Any clear-minded person who can think for himself instead of spouting what he's been spoon-fed by a corrupt church system could see something monstrously wrong with this kind of a salvation plan from a mile off. But if you insist on painting God as the biggest failure in the universe, unable with all His power to overcome man's sinful bent--even men who has never even heard the name of Jesus--then go right on thinking that. But your numbers are dwindling fast and I'll tell you why: because no televangelist or preacher with one eye on the tithe basket, and they ALL have their eyes on the tithing basket these days, dares even mention the subject--that's how radioactive the topic of eternal torment is in modern society. They know that by even broaching eternal torment they would empty their Church out faster than than someone yelling, "Fire!" You know it and I know it.
Look at what you have written here.
This is all human theory about what you think God should be like. There is no Scripture. There is no dependency on God. There is no trust in God. This is all about you and what you think SHOULD happen.
You mention clear minded people who can think for himself. The Bible says...
Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
... so if I am at odds with what the Bible says, I assume it's correct instead of me.
You mention painting God as a failure - you are the only one who says that. Your theology says if the world doesn't end like you want it to end, then it's a failure - and whomever is responsible is a failure. You need to deal with that in yourself.
This whole conversation to me is about whom do you trust? Can you acknowledge at least that if things don't turn out like you want - you will still acknowledge God as who He is? ...that you will stop calling Him a failure if everyone is not saved? ...that you will let the Word speak for itself? If you don't want to believe the whole plan of eternal punishment - fine. But you should at least acknowledge it's presence in the Bible and accept it as a possibility.
To answer your question - of course the parenting is questionable - but your analogy is flawed.
God's children become his children by faith. And those who are his children will inherit the promises set forth in the Bible and will dwell with the Father and Son after life on earth.
1 John 5:1 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,...
Those who are not his children are His enemies.
Romans 5:10 - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
1 Corinthians 15:25 - For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
Jesus' death was done for His enemies - but they are still enemies until they are saved through faith.
So your analogy is flawed because all of humanity are not God's children.
Look at what you have written here.
This is all human theory about what you think God should be like. There is no Scripture. There is no dependency on God. There is no trust in God. This is all about you and what you think SHOULD happen.
You mention clear minded people who can think for himself. The Bible says...
Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
... so if I am at odds with what the Bible says, I assume it's correct instead of me.
You mention painting God as a failure - you are the only one who says that. Your theology says if the world doesn't end like you want it to end, then it's a failure - and whomever is responsible is a failure. You need to deal with that in yourself.
This whole conversation to me is about whom do you trust? Can you acknowledge at least that if things don't turn out like you want - you will still acknowledge God as who He is? ...that you will stop calling Him a failure if everyone is not saved? ...that you will let the Word speak for itself? If you don't want to believe the whole plan of eternal punishment - fine. But you should at least acknowledge it's presence in the Bible and accept it as a possibility.
DRob, you sound just like a child who tries with all his might to make excuses for why his parents failed him and his other siblings because of dissolute parenting skills i.e. ignoring them, not ever being there for them, abusing them, etc. My Bible says God is Father of all". That doesn't mean some and not others, that means all-----as in "ALL"---put another way: ALL
Quote:
Ephesians 4:6 "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."
In most any civilized court in most any civilized country on earth the judge says, "If you took the time to make the child, you're responsible for the child's well-being until he's an adult." Why should God, who operates on a system of fairness eons above ours make children and then cast their eternal destiny aside from birth? Believe that if you want, but to most clear-thinking people in here it's a no-brainer.
DRob, you sound just like a child who tries with all his might to make excuses for why his parents failed him and his other siblings because of dissolute parenting skills i.e. ignoring them, not ever being there for them, abusing them, etc. My Bible says God is Father of all". That doesn't mean some and not others, that means all-----as in "ALL"---put another way: ALL
In most any civilized court in most any civilized country on earth the judge says, "If you took the time to make the child, you're responsible for the child's well-being until he's an adult." Why should God, who operates on a system of fairness eons above ours make children and then cast their eternal destiny aside from birth? Believe that if you want, but to most clear-thinking people in here it's a no-brainer.
Regarding the RED - where?
Jesus said to the Pharisees...
John 8:41-44 - 41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
It doesn't sound like God is their Father.
You only dealt with your flawed analogy - not with the substance of what I posted - about trusting God regardless of the outcome. I guess your response is indicative of the answer.
Do you love God unconditionally? Without regards to the outcome of the world?
Ephesians 4:6 How did you miss it in my previous post?
I didn't miss what you said, I asked for the reference.
So you take Jesus' statement to the Pharisees (John 8:41-44 that I quoted earlier) - and we know Jesus is all truth all the time - and we have your take on Eph. 4:6 that God is the Father of all mankind. Seems like a contradiction. But there are no contradictions - so it's time to dig further.
What's the context?
Ephesians 4:1-8
1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
I read this and ask - what does "all" represent? The Father is not only the father of all - but he is also over all, through all, and IN all. The last one is troublesome to your interpretation of the Father being over all of mankind - because He is definitely not IN all of mankind. He IS in all of believers. The context also speaks of one faith, one baptism, one body, one Spirit, and Christ's gift. This is not representative of unbelievers and all of mankind. Also...
1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
This echoes the John 8:44 verse about children of the devil.
So according to the context in surrounding verses and other supporting verses - "all" in Ephesians 4 refers to all believers - NOT all of mankind - because the context of the verse is in reference to believers only. And because people can't be children of God and children of the devil at the same time.
I am a black guy that is politically conservative. I am not concerned about consensus opinions.
I believe God is in control of His Word - translations included. The good translations persevere over time. The bad translations do not. If He can't control what He wants to say to creation - how powerful is He?
So you can pick fights with the translators if you wish. The major doctrines have remained constant through the years - and that is through God's power.
Do you care to comment on the three verses I quoted?
By the way, the Rom. 16:25 verse you quoted - the term is slightly different from Matt. 25:46. It's the only place it's used in the NT.
No there is no need to comment on those verses with you Rob. I don't see it as being productive in any manner.
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