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You say that there were true gods after Jehovah. The Word of God says that there is only one true God.
John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Since the Bible says that there is only one true God, your statement that many true gods came after Jehovah is false.
And Jesus in John 17:3 is not saying that He is not the true God, but rather, He is speaking from the standpoint of His humanity. As man, Jesus' God is the Father. But as God, Jesus is equal with the Father. This has to do with the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ.
Again. Jesus said that there was only one true God which does not deny that He Himself is the true God, but it does prove your statement that there were other true gods after Jehovah to be false.
Terms like hypostatic union have no meaning.
So, like I said, if I give you a bunch of scriptures where there are true and false gods mentioned after Jehovah what would your response be? For example, angels, the judges of Israel, Moses . . .
My concern is that you can't translate Mark 6:49 because it has nothing to do with the trinity. I repeat the following from my original post: Pay special attention to the bold text.
you first said John 6:49, now you say Mark 6:49. I don't follow what you're trying to say in regards to it not being relevant to the Trinity. What does that have to do with it?
Quote:
The Greek word θεός (theos) is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb and is not preceded by the definite article. This is an anarthrous theos. The God with whom the Word, or Logos, was originally is designated here by the Greek expression ὁ θεός, that is, theos preceded by the definite article ho. This is an articular theos. The articular construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb points to a quality about someone. John was saying that the Word or Logos was "a god" or "divine" or "godlike" rather than that he was the God with whom he was.
Except that the article isn't there in the Greek. John didn't write it. You're inserting it. John knew what he was writing. Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. He didn't say Jesus was "godlike" or "divine". He said He was God.
The concept of the Trinity is based on what the Bible teaches. The doctrine of the trinity is not stated in one sentence per se, but rather like this. If A=B and B=C then A=C. So we have scriptures that say Jesus is God such as John 1:1 and 1:14 plus Phil 2:5-8. Other scriptures say the Holy Spirit is God such as Romans 8:9-11, 2Cor 3:3 and 17-18 plus Acts 5:3-4. This is the short list. There are more scriptures that support the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit.
There are a number of scriptures that state the same attribute for God and Jesus. Jesus and God cannot both possess these particular attributes, unless they are one and the same.
*************
Read John 10:30-33 --Jesus said, I and My Father are one.”
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
See what the Jews said in reaction to Jesus saying He and the Father were one. They knew what Jesus meant.
And look at what the Jews said in Luke 5:20-25--When Jesus saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.
The Jews were correct in saying that only God can forgive sins.
We have scriptures that say Jesus is God such as John 1:1--In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And then John 1:14-- And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. (bear in mind that God can be in two or more places at once.
Phil 2:5-8 says: Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
***********
A final cite: Isaiah 43:10
You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,
“ And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
So says the Lord.
So Judaism contradicts Christianity after all. Did any Buddhas exist before God (YHWH)?
You say that there were true gods after Jehovah. The Word of God says that there is only one true God.
John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Since the Bible says that there is only one true God, your statement that many true gods came after Jehovah is false.
And Jesus in John 17:3 is not saying that He is not the true God, but rather, He is speaking from the standpoint of His humanity. As man, Jesus' God is the Father. But as God, Jesus is equal with the Father. This has to do with the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ.
Again. Jesus said that there was only one true God which does not deny that He Himself is the true God, but it does prove your statement that there were other true gods after Jehovah to be false.
AMEN! In Jesus, God Himself became a man to provide the means for redemption of mankind. Jesus was God incarnate, God in human form.
Therefore, in answer, the Jews said to him: “What sign have you to show us, since you are doing these things?”19In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”20Therefore the Jews said: “This temple was built in forty‐six years, and will you raise it up in three days?”21But he was talking about the temple of his body.22When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say this; and they believed the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said.
Who raised Jesus from the dead? According to John 2 he did. Other passages attribute it to the Father while other passages in Romans 8 refer to the Holy Spirit. If you do a study into the godhead, you will find that all three persons are involved in the works of Jehovah God.
The New World Translation is a translation of a CORRUPT Kingdom interlinear. I highly recommend getting away from the Watchtower's influence and put your trust in Jehovah God incarnate Jesus Christ.
There are many other passages that show that Jesus declared equality with God. This is pure blasphemy if Jesus was not God.
Isaiah 46:9-10
King James Version (KJV)
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
John 13:18-19
18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
One doesn't need to argue the heavily disputed passage of the Johanneum Comma. I personally believe God in when he says he will preserve us his Word in a language to the common people not suffering his sheep at the hands of a bunch of gnostic Hellenistic unbelievers attempting to persuade people God's got it all wrong. I think it's best to let God be true and every man a liar. I believe 1 John 7 is inspired despite the "scholars" claiming it isn't. From what I gather there are 8 or so manuscripts out of the 200 so that DO contain the passage so it is not completely without evidence. Also there is I believe tertullian referencing to it in the first couple centuries. So who you gonna believe? The Watchtower who says Jesus is in the secret places somewhere in New York city? How many times does an organization need to be wrong until people realize it is a DANGEROUS institution that works by putting their members in FEAR in religious BONDAGE? Jesus Christ came to free you from this religious bondage. And also 144,000 is in reference to physical seed/descendants of Israel during the 70th week of Daniel (commonly called tribulation). None of fallen man will be able to work their way into heaven. Salvation is a free gift simply received by faith in Jesus Christ. There will be no boasting in heaven (Ephesians 2:8-10). There will be rewards for the faithful and loss for the faithless. (1 Cor 3)
Firstborn is in reference to preeminence not first born of genealogy just as "only begotten" is.
Genesis 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Genesis 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
What about Ishmael?
Hebrews 11
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Isaac is a type of Christ thus "only son." What is begotten has a beginning, and JESUS/the incarnate God (not Christ/the eternal God) was begotton in the womb of his Earthly mother Mary.
And God who became Man and still is a Man in his glorified resurrection body is currently seated at the right hand of the Father waiting for an appointed time in which he will return to set up His Kingdom.
I hope you find your way out of that organization. I think many good misled people that would make great Christians are being held in bondage being deceived. Please do some research into the Kingdom Interlinear and see how it is a corrupt translation being corrupted by the folks at the Watchtower that clearly have an agenda to discredit the deity of Jesus Christ and the godhead.
They also endorse the "Kingdom Now"/Dominionist perspective just like the Mormons, Catholics, etc.. One thing the AntiChrist spirit seems to have in common is that they all believe that MAN has to HELP Jehovah God bring the Kingdom to this Earth. The end result looks to be bloodshed and it is NOT the will of Jehovah.
Jesus Christ comes back in clouds and WE/the Saints will be watching.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 11-29-2012 at 08:50 PM..
So, like I said, if I give you a bunch of scriptures where there are true and false gods mentioned after Jehovah what would your response be? For example, angels, the judges of Israel, Moses . . .
So in other words, you are calling Jesus a liar. Jesus Himself said that there is only one true God (see post #19). Who are we to believe? You? Or Jesus Christ!!! And again, Jesus was speaking from the standpoint of His humanity. As God He is equal with the Father. There is only one true Creator God who brought all things into existance. And that is the triune God who is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Theological terms such as the hypostatic union are full of meaning for anyone who actually knows any theology. The Hypostatic union recognizes that in the Person of Jesus Christ are two distinct natures which are inseparately united, yet without mixture of the divine and human attributes. Since His incarnation, Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man. Compare John 1:1 with John 1:14. Compare Phil 2:5-6 with Phil 2:7-8. The term 'hypostatic union' was coined by the early Church in recognition of the two natures of Jesus Christ.
Excerpt:
The theological term "hypostatic union" has its origins in the Council of Chalcedon and emphasizes that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man at the same time. It is used to affirm the union of Jesus' divine and human natures in one person--that Jesus Christ is perfectly God and perfectly man. Or, as theologians say, He is consubstantial with God as to His deity and with mankind as to His humanity. I heard John use the term "hypostatic union." What does that mean and where did it come from?
So, are you sure that you want to call Jesus Christ a liar???
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-29-2012 at 08:47 PM..
you first said John 6:49, now you say Mark 6:49. I don't follow what you're trying to say in regards to it not being relevant to the Trinity. What does that have to do with it?
I don't think that most people realize they are doing it, but the typical MO for a discussion like this is to dump a great deal of scriptures they have been taught supports the Trinity doctrine. They don't put much real thought into it. You said that you could translate the Greek of John 1:1 where it indicates Jesus is God.
If you can translate John 1:1 you can translate Mark 6:49. I originally said Mark 6:49. I said Mark 6:49 because it uses the same structure. Scholars who want to support the Trinity will heed that structure accurately at Mark 6:49 and all of the other verses I have, but they don't at John 1:1 because they want to support the Trinity. You can see how they do this if you carefully read this trinitarian explanation at Bible Lexicon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Except that the article isn't there in the Greek. John didn't write it. You're inserting it. John knew what he was writing. Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. He didn't say Jesus was "godlike" or "divine". He said He was God.
No. John did write it, they just don't want you to know he wrote it. Read the link I gave you.
So Judaism contradicts Christianity after all. Did any Buddhas exist before God (YHWH)?
Judaism doesn't contradict the original Christianity. The argument always seems to be is one monotheistic or polytheistic. They were neither. They are henotheistic.
I don't think that most people realize they are doing it, but the typical MO for a discussion like this is to dump a great deal of scriptures they have been taught supports the Trinity doctrine. They don't put much real thought into it. You said that you could translate the Greek of John 1:1 where it indicates Jesus is God.
If you can translate John 1:1 you can translate Mark 6:49. I originally said Mark 6:49. I said Mark 6:49 because it uses the same structure. Scholars who want to support the Trinity will heed that structure accurately at Mark 6:49 and all of the other verses I have, but they don't at John 1:1 because they want to support the Trinity. You can see how they do this if you carefully read this trinitarian explanation at Bible Lexicon.
Yes. I've been to Seminary. I can read Greek. I haven't just googled a few sites to help with it.
Quote:
No. John did write it, they just don't want you to know he wrote it. Read the link I gave you.
No. John did not write it.
I'm not sure what link you're referring to. I haven't seen one that makes your point.
The Theist: All the hallmarks of a Jehovah Witness.
They have a special "translation" which supports their doctrine.
So Theist, please explain away Isaiah 43:10 which says:
“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
I think you guys forgot to change that OT passage in your special bible. From the NWT:
10) "You are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none
So if you believe that John 1:1 refers to a god, then you are calling Jehovah a liar.
Please respond to my post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Theist
Isaiah 43:10: "You are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none."
Since I can give you a list of gods in the Bible, both true and false, who came after Jehovah, there are three possibilities that I can see. 1. This is a spurious scripture. It isn't. 2. It is a contradiction in the Bible. It isn't. 3. There came many gods after Jehovah, both true and false, including Jesus, but none of them were before him equal in importance.
3 Is the correct answer.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I guess you are saying that the words of the Lord were false.
You do realize that all of the pagan gods were false. Demons in disguise? Not actual deities. I would not ever place Jesus in the same class as the gods. You say that Jesus was was more equal in importance than...say Zeus? Oden? Wow. I want nothing to do with your jesus. Jesus, the god???
JW theology is a bit scary. No salvation. Not from some god. Salvation only comes from God.
Isaiah: 43:11 says:
I, even I, am the Lord, And there is no savior besides Me.
12 “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed,
And there was no strange god among you;
So you are My witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“And I am God.
And Titus 3:4-6 says:
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
If only God can be our savior then who is Jesus, who is our savior?
Last edited by Mr5150; 11-29-2012 at 09:06 PM..
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AMEN! In Jesus, God Himself became a man to provide the means for redemption of mankind. Jesus was God incarnate, God in human form.
How many times does an organization need to be wrong until people realize it is a DANGEROUS institution that works by putting their members in FEAR in religious BONDAGE? Jesus Christ came to free you from this religious bondage. And also 144,000 is in reference to physical seed/descendants of Israel during the 70th week of Daniel (commonly called tribulation). None of fallen man will be able to work their way into heaven. Salvation is a free gift simply received by faith in Jesus Christ. There will be no boasting in heaven (Ephesians 2:8-10). There will be rewards for the faithful and loss for the faithless. (1 Cor 3)
