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1. You showed scriptures that show God "repented". Within the scripture definition of "repent" I agree that God repented.
Bob you do need to reconcile those scriptures I posted with the scriptures you posted, because an exhaustive foreknowing God is not compatible with a God who can change His mind.
A couple of questions will show this.
When God told Hezekiah that he would die of his sickness do you believe God meant what He said?
If so, how can God mean what He said to Hezekiah when according to you God foreknew that Hezekiah would pray and God would change His mind?
When God told Nineveh that He would overthrow them do you believe God meant what He said?
If so, how can God mean what He said to Nineveh when according to you God foreknew that Nineveh would repent and God would change His mind?
In both cases if God foreknew from eternity past that none of these things would really happen what was God doing saying these things would happen?
If we said something would happen knowing full well that it would not happen would we not be lying?
Thus a God with exhaustive foreknowledge and a God who can change His mind are NOT compatible, for an exhaustive foreknowing God becomes a God who lies.
Sorry Bob but you cannot believe both are true unless you double speak to hold to both views. Which is something myself and others have pointed out to you and others who hold the pagan Platonian/Augustine view do all the time. No one can nail down what you guys believe because you guys are all over the map.
When God told David that Saul would come down and the people of Keilah would deliver David into their hands do you believe God meant what He said?
What happened to Gods exhaustive foreknowledge here Bob? God said something would happen that NEVER happened and it has NOTHING to do with God changing His mind.
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2. You said God does not meticulously control all events. I agree. When a bird eats this fat worm instead of that thin worm, it's because the bird wanted to. Not because God controlled the bird. Same with Adam. God did not meticulously control Adam or Eve to sin. They chose to sin. God gave the bird a will that prefers juicy worms. God gave Adam and Eve a certain nature too and that nature was imperfect. That does not constitute "meticulously controlling" since once God gave Adam and Eve their nature... they are in control. They make all their own choices.
Why does a lion hunt and eat other animals? Because God gave it that nature. Does that mean God meticulously controls the lion each time he hunts forcing the lion when to hunt and which prey to seek out? No. God does not. God gave man a nature with physical desires like hunger and pain and pleasure etc. We are subject to those desires and at some point in our lives they get the better of all men. We all fall to sin. In the end, we all need to subject all our desires to Christ. We need God help to do that.
As I said before Bob
And again this is not compatible with your view that God created Adam, planned out from eternity past that Adam would be disobedient and fall into sin and death, thus Adam had to be disobedient because God planned it all out that way.
If you have changed your mind about the above Bob let me know, for if you have not all I see is the same double speak that Augustine has to go through with his belief in a meticulous controlling God and the free will of man.
All I see is you double speaking again Bob. You say God is not in meticulous control then go on to explain just how meticulous God is in control.
You say God gave Adam a certain nature (would this be a sin nature Bob?)
By saying God gave Adam this certain nature you have placed Gods meticulous control inside of man on a biological or spiritual level. This certain nature you say God gave Adam was the reason Adam disobeyed God and ate from the tree.
According to you this certain nature God gave Adam is the reason Adam preferred to eat from the tree, which is to prefer disobedience over obedience, which is to prefer sin over righteousness. So tell me how this is not a meticulously controlling God?
Bob this certain nature you say God gave Adam did not come from God, it is from the spirit that worketh in the sons of disobedience. This certain nature is of the devil brother, a tare sown among the wheat and is NOT from God.
God created man a LIVING creature Bob, which is an obedient creature, not a disobedient creature which is a DEAD creature. God created man with the spirit of LIFE, not the spirit of DEATH.
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To me the phrase "meticulous control" would mean God is controlling Adam and Eves every move. Deciding for Adam that Adam will do this and not that. I do not believe God does that. I realize that some believe that God controls every single event. But I do not believe this.
Yet do you not also believe that Adam absolutely had to eat from the tree because God planned it all out that way?
Do you not see how this makes you double speak?
On one hand you say God is not in meticulous control, and on the other hand you say God gave Adam this certain nature so that Adam absolutely had to eat from the tree so that God could fulfill His plan.
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3. You didn't show one scripture that says "God does not have exhaustive foreknowlege". All you showed were your own errant deductions. For example you say that God "repenting" means that God does not have exhaustive foreknowedge. That simply is not true. You made that up. I already did respond to that and showed that God can foreknow that He will repent and he can foreknow all the relevant information about when and why God will repent. Since God foreknew all the relevant information concerning he own repentance, additional exhaustive foreknowledge would not keep God from repenting. I will give you an example of your errant deductions regarding the parable about the Father sending His Son and (supposedly) believing they will reverence Him, once I understand exactly what you believe about that.
If God had exhaustive foreknowledge knowing He would change His mind then God lied when He said Hezekiah would die, Nineveh would be overthrown and Saul would come down and the people of Keilah would deliver David into their hands.
You simply cannot believe these thing really would have happened because you believe God foreknew that they would not happen.
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The scriptures I posted show that God had detailed and specific foreknowlege of events prior to these people being born. So God didn't read their hearts. Like casting lots to part Jesus garments. This is not 30 second foreknowlege of general events like "man will sin" based on reading his heart. This is 100 or 1000 year foreknowledge of obscure events that requries God to simply be able to "see" the future. I told you in an early post that it is impossible to prove exhaustive foreknowledge. Scripture simply does not tell us God thoughts from eternity past. But the fact that God named specific events like this prior to men being born tells me that He does.
Well Bob if it is impossible to prove God has exhaustive foreknowledge why do you keep trying to prove the impossible?
And as I have pointed out Gods foreknowledge of what HE will do is different then Gods foreknowledge of what man will do.
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My point was to show you that my belief is not based on Plato or Augustine. It is based on these kinds of scriptures. I don't expect you to agree.
All you pointed out (to me at least) is that you double speak after the same fashion that Augustine did concerning a meticulous controlling God and free will.
But who cares Scott? These people are not authorities. And they should have no weight in your book since they agree with 1 of the 3 vies you think are pagan.
If you read the early church fathers, they couldn't even agree on who or what Holy Spirit was.
You missed the point Bob. Part of my contention is that Augustine brought this pagan Platonian view of a meticulous controlling God into mainstream Christianity.
I post some early church fathers to show that the early church father did not believe in a meticulously controlling God.
It does not matter if the earlier fathers where correct or not Bob for that is NOT the point, the point is that church history shows that a meticulously controlling God was not apparent before the time of Augustine.
So whether you like it or not it pertains to what I have been saying, and after all it is my thread and if I think something is pertinent to my thread who are you to say it should have no weight.
Actually I responded to
- "now I know"
- Hezekiah
- "Where art thou" Adam
- God repenting (which covers many of your examples)
- Under what conditions a scripture should be taken as anthropomorphism
- God changing his mind (He does in the scirptural sense)
- meticulous control (I don't believe God controls our actions, we do)
- I will address the parable once I understand exaclty what you believe
Just because you don't agree with my responses doesn't mean I didn't address them.
I gave those list of scriptures so you could get some idea why I believe God has exhaustive foreknowledge. Clearly those examples show that God's foreknowledge extends prior to the birth of those whose actions God foreknew. God is not "coming down" or "testing" or "searching hearts" to know these things. These are not 30 second foreknowing.
The scriptures you gave are not in error. Your deductions are in error.
You addressed them brother, but your address is full of double speak and I don't count that as addressing them. To me a wishy washy answer is no answer at all because you say one thing then proceed to undo all you said before concerning what you had said.
God say He tries us so the HE WILL KNOW whether we will keep His commandments or not.
You say that is not correct because God foreknew from eternity past whether we would obey His commandments or not. Then turn around an tell me that there is NOTHING to reconcile.
Sorry Bob, but as God tells us that He tries us so that HE WILL KNOW whether we will keep His commandments or not I will believe Him over the pagan view of an exhaustive foreknowing God, which tell us that God foreknew from eternity past whether we would keep His commandments or not.
Scott, I am asking you what you believe. You are confusing me.
Do you believe that God believed (when OT scriptures were written) that:
1. That the religious leaders of Israel would reject and kill Christ
2. That the religious leaders of Israel would reverance his son.
Which?
I can't respond unless I really understand what you believe.
Again:
I said:
God foreknew that Jesus would be crucified long before the event and long before any of the individuals who killed Jesus were born. Therefore, God didn't read anyone's mind to know that.
You responded:
Bob even man can foreknow with pretty good accuracy what a group of people will do, but they cannot foreknow what an individual in the group will do. God foreknew Jesus would be rejected by His people, because His people rejected Him and Jesus was the express image of God.
So I said that God foreknew before Christ was born that they would reject him. And here you seem to agree. But when it comes to the parable, at the time God was sending His son and AFTER he had sent the prophets, God was (according to you) believing they would reverence him. I can't determine which you believe or when you believe that God stopped believing they would reverence His son when when God beleived they would reject Jesus.
Bob I see it as Gods thought process. In Luke it say "it may be they will reverence him when they see him. What this plainly shows is that God does NOT have exhaustive foreknowledge for if God foreknew from eternity past that they would reject His son the word "it may be" have no meaning.
So until God sent forth His son God thought or at least hoped that the people would reverence His son.
The reason they do not addess them, pneuma . . . is because they do NOT believe our God is a Living God. They believe in a static, unchanging God. This produces all the paradoxes and inconsistencies in their interpretations of scripture. The Living Word of God implies our God is LIVING. Living implies growth and change. Most human conceptions of God ("precepts and doctrines of men") are "made up" to establish what humans THINK a God MUST be to qualify as God. They try to "force fit" the scriptures to these "precepts and doctrines" . . . as Kingdom is doing. You cannot win that game, pneuma . . . but just keep playing and the lurkers will gain the most from your participation, my brother.
Thanks for the word of encouragement brother, indeed our God is a LIVING God and therefore cannot be a static God. It is because He is a LIVING God that He is different from all the other gods who have NO LIFE in them.
It is time to serve the LIVING God and to put aside these pagan gods men worship.
Bob you do need to reconcile those scriptures I posted with the scriptures you posted, because an exhaustive foreknowing God is not compatible with a God who can change His mind.
A couple of questions will show this.
When God told Hezekiah that he would die of his sickness do you believe God meant what He said?
If so, how can God mean what He said to Hezekiah when according to you God foreknew that Hezekiah would pray and God would change His mind?
When God told Nineveh that He would overthrow them do you believe God meant what He said?
If so, how can God mean what He said to Nineveh when according to you God foreknew that Nineveh would repent and God would change His mind?
In both cases if God foreknew from eternity past that none of these things would really happen what was God doing saying these things would happen?
If we said something would happen knowing full well that it would not happen would we not be lying?
Thus a God with exhaustive foreknowledge and a God who can change His mind are NOT compatible, for an exhaustive foreknowing God becomes a God who lies.
Sorry Bob but you cannot believe both are true unless you double speak to hold to both views. Which is something myself and others have pointed out to you and others who hold the pagan Platonian/Augustine view do all the time. No one can nail down what you guys believe because you guys are all over the map.
When God told David that Saul would come down and the people of Keilah would deliver David into their hands do you believe God meant what He said?
What happened to Gods exhaustive foreknowledge here Bob? God said something would happen that NEVER happened and it has NOTHING to do with God changing His mind.
I already answered all these in my previous post about Hezekiah. But I will try again. All these examples have the same answer so let's just use Ninevah.
"In forty days Ninevah will be overthrown" meant implicitly "In forty days Ninevah will be overthrown [if Ninevah remains on its present path]." It is obvious that God's warning was conditional since the last chapter of Jonah shows that God's purpose in warning them was to save the city and its cattle. Do you agree this was the implicit meaning?
The statement "In forty days Ninevah will be overthrown [if Ninevah persists on it's present path]." is true whether God has no forekowledge, 30 second foreknowledge, 100 year or eternal foreknowledge of what Ninevah will choose.
The only question is: Can God make seemiingly useless statements? Why would God communicate "Ninevah will be overthrown [if they don't repent]" when God foreknows they will repent? The answer is simple. God made that statement because the warning helpted them to repent. It was a very useful statement.
Besides that, God does sometimes make warnings that are seemingly useless, given His foreknowlege. God foreknew that pharoah would NOT repent upon being warned. Nevertheless God still warned him over and over: Let my people go. If God can warn a man to repent, knowing that the warning will be ignored, then certainly God can make a warning, knowing the warning will be heeded.
Scott... you believe God foreknows all possibilities. I believe that too. I believe that additionally God knows which of all those possibilities will actually play out. But that does not stop God for foreknowing was would happen if another path were chosen.
In the latter chapters of Deuteronomy God warns Israel of two possible paths. One path they obey God and will be blessed. The other path, they turn from God and will be cursed. God foretold both possibilities even though God knew that the good possibility would NOT be chosen. Likewise God told Ninevah about a possibilty that WOULD OCCUR if they remained on their present path even though God KNEW they would repent.
Thanks for the word of encouragement brother, indeed our God is a LIVING God and therefore cannot be a static God. It is because He is a LIVING God that He is different from all the other gods who have NO LIFE in them.
It is time to serve the LIVING God and to put aside these pagan gods men worship.
Knowing the futrue does not make God NOT LIVING. We both agree that God's nature is unchanging. We both agree that God has something similar to our feelings of joy and sadness. We both agree that God reponds to your prayers, and how we act. So I don't believe in a static God.
Bob I see it as Gods thought process. In Luke it say "it may be they will reverence him when they see him. What this plainly shows is that God does NOT have exhaustive foreknowledge for if God foreknew from eternity past that they would reject His son the word "it may be" have no meaning.
So until God sent forth His son God thought or at least hoped that the people would reverence His son.
This is provably false. It's even in the text you quoted. God foretold 1000 years before Christ was born that the builders would reject the stone. The builders are the husbandmen. THe stone is Christ. God foretold that the husbandmen would reject the son while many prophets were yet to come and be killed.
Can we also conclude from this parable that God is not omnipresent? After all God went to a far away country and couldn't find out what was happening with his vineyard without sending servants.
The parable is not about ominipresence or foreknowlege. It's an indictment of the husbandmen. *(the religions leaders). The purpsoe of saying "they will reverence my son" is to say anyone with any decency would expect them to at least honor the son. Look how evil you are. Not only you killed the servants... you even killed his only son.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 04-03-2013 at 10:38 AM..
I already answered all these in my previous post about Hezekiah. But I will try again. All these examples have the same answer so let's just use Ninevah.
"In forty days Ninevah will be overthrown" meant implicitly "In forty days Ninevah will be overthrown [if Ninevah remains on its present path]." It is obvious that God's warning was conditional since the last chapter of Jonah shows that God's purpose in warning them was to save the city and its cattle. Do you agree this was the implicit meaning?
The statement "In forty days Ninevah will be overthrown [if Ninevah persists on it's present path]." is true whether God has no forekowledge, 30 second foreknowledge, 100 year or eternal foreknowledge of what Ninevah will choose.
The only question is: Can God make seemiingly useless statements? Why would God communicate "Ninevah will be overthrown [if they don't repent]" when God foreknows they will repent? The answer is simple. God made that statement because the warning helpted them to repent. It was a very useful statement.
Bob you cannot use that reasoning for all those scriptures. I agree God was warning Nineveh that He would overthrow them if they did not repent. However if God foreknew Nineveh would repent and did not really plan to overthrow Nineveh then the warning becomes a lie.
So my question is: do you believe that if Nineveh had not repented that God would have overthrown them?
If so how is that compatible with God foreknowing they would repent and God actually changing His mind?
Same type of questions go for the Hezekiah scriptures.
Did God really mean it when He told Hezekiah that he would die of his sickness?
There was no warning given here, Hezekiah asked God if he would die and God said yes.
So if God foreknew Hezekiah would pray and that He (God) would add 15 years to Hezekiah's life how can God really mean that Hezekiah would die if He (God) knew if fact Hezekiah would not die?
And what do you do with David, Saul and the people of Keilah?
God said Saul would come down and the people of Keilah would deliver David into their hands.
Why did this not happen just as God said it would?
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Besides that, God does sometimes make warnings that are seemingly useless, given His foreknowlege. God foreknew that pharoah would NOT repent upon being warned. Nevertheless God still warned him over and over: Let my people go. If God can warn a man to repent, knowing that the warning will be ignored, then certainly God can make a warning, knowing the warning will be heeded.
How does this show exhaustive foreknowledge Bob? Can not God search our hearts and know these things? Do you not see that "let my people go" is a command from God? What is to say God was not testing Pharaoh to know whether he would keep His commandment or not?
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Scott... you believe God foreknows all possibilities. I believe that too. I believe that additionally God knows which of all those possibilities will actually play out. But that does not stop God for foreknowing was would happen if another path were chosen.
Well then we are closer in understanding here then our posts look like. The difference being I do not believe God foreknows which possibility will actually play out where man is concerned until man makes up his own mind of the matter, or makes the choice which path he will take.
Bob look at all the scriptures where God says to Israel if you do such and such I will pour out blessings upon you and if you do not do such and such I will pour out my wrath upon you.
If God shows us two different paths they we could take how is it He knows from eternity past which path it is we will take? Why does He say that He tests us so that HE WILL KNOW?
To me that God can respond to each choice we make (and there are many choices along each path) and still bring us to salvation shows a far more powerful God then a God who planned it all out from the get go and cannot change the way He deals with us along each path.
Put it this way Bob which football coach do you think receives the greater glory.
The football coach that already knows every move of every player on the opposing team (has their playbook) will make in the game and thus wins the game.
Or the football coach that knows the game of football so good that any move the opposing players make He can counter and thus wins the game.
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In the latter chapters of Deuteronomy God warns Israel of two possible paths. One path they obey God and will be blessed. The other path, they turn from God and will be cursed. God foretold both possibilities even though God knew that the good possibility would NOT be chosen. Likewise God told Ninevah about a possibilty that WOULD OCCUR if they remained on their present path even though God KNEW they would repent.
But did God know which possibility would be chosen from eternity past or because He had tested them so that He would know whether they would keep His commandments or not?
This is provably false. It's even in the text you quoted. God foretold 1000 years before Christ was born that the builders would reject the stone. The builders are the husbandmen. THe stone is Christ. God foretold that the husbandmen would reject the son while many prophets were yet to come and be killed.
Can we also conclude from this parable that God is not omnipresent? After all God went to a far away country and couldn't find out what was happening with his vineyard without sending servants.
The parable is not about ominipresence or foreknowlege. It's an indictment of the husbandmen. *(the religions leaders). The purpsoe of saying "they will reverence my son" is to say anyone with any decency would expect them to at least honor the son. Look how evil you are. Not only you killed the servants... you even killed his only son.
That your understanding of it Bob, but that is NOT what it says. The parable not only reveals mans thoughts toward Jesus it also show us what Gods thoughts are towards Jesus. Your taking part of that which the parable shows ( mans thoughts as it were) and stating that is all the parables shows. To my way of understanding Gods thoughts are of far more importance then mans thoughts. And Gods thought is that He thought they would reverence His son.
Where does it say God foretold/prophesied a 1000 years before Jesus was born that He/Jesus would be rejected?
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