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So, am I the only creationist here who actually expects to have evidence for this view? I've been to my father's Bible study group, and those there are not really interested in going into the deeper things of science. Of course they are older than me, and I'm the only young mind there. That is I'm the only one who's open and interested in the deeper things of our faith. If my questions get too deep, they ultimately just say to take things on faith. Yet they don't understand. It's because of my faith, I'm confident evidence will come about concerning the history of the Bible. Yet it seems I'm the only one who thinks like this. Not only the Bible study group, but pretty much everywhere I go. No one thinks like I do and I got to tell you, it's downright lonely.
If the Bible is true concerning our history, then we should expect evidence to show it. Evidence is the one thing that would seperate us from every religion in the world. Yet I have better conversations with atheists on this subject. Even though they see my beliefs as crazy, at least they understand where I'm coming from concerning my reasons of expecting evidence for my case, or having a desire for evidence. (By evidence, I'm talking scientific experiments and research going into it, and seeing if it holds up to scrutiny. That these experiments can be repeated by other scientists, and shown to be true) I just can't find any Christian who understands me. Not that I'm being selfish or full of myself either. The things I ask about should be expected, yet I'm the only one it seems who cares.
The most well known creationists out there (Those at Answers in Genesis, Creation Magazine Live, and so on), don't have anything to show for what they are saying. All they do is try to poke holes into things like Common Descent Evolution and the Big Bang Theory. Where is the evidence for your side people? It's kind of like hating on those who are succesful, saying they aren't really who they say they are, and yet your the biggest hypocrite of them all! The best they can offer is pretty much blind speculation. For instance, the reason why stars are so far away and we can see it's light, is because of a special time dilation effect. That the earth is sitting in something called a gravity well and so on, and so on, and so on. Okay, the earth is sitting in a gravity well, where are the experiments and study helping to prove this blind speculation? They stop at the blind speculation, and say "See, creation makes sense". Am I the only creationist who wants actual evidence and study, who expects it?
If there are creationists here who thinks like me, let's have a good discussion in this topic. Let's talk about some possible studies that can be had to test for creationism. Let's not ignore the fact there is much observable evidence that points toward common descent evolution, and why that is. Let's just get as deep as we can because I have a lot of things to say which most Christians and creationists (not every Christian is a literal creationist) just don't understand, and don't want to understand.
So, am I the only creationist here who actually expects to have evidence for this view? I've been to my father's Bible study group, and those there are not really interested in going into the deeper things of science. Of course they are older than me, and I'm the only young mind there. That is I'm the only one who's open and interested in the deeper things of our faith. If my questions get too deep, they ultimately just say to take things on faith. Yet they don't understand. It's because of my faith, I'm confident evidence will come about concerning the history of the Bible. Yet it seems I'm the only one who thinks like this. Not only the Bible study group, but pretty much everywhere I go. No one thinks like I do and I got to tell you, it's downright lonely.
If the Bible is true concerning our history, then we should expect evidence to show it. Evidence is the one thing that would seperate us from every religion in the world. Yet I have better conversations with atheists on this subject. Even though they see my beliefs as crazy, at least they understand where I'm coming from concerning my reasons of expecting evidence for my case, or having a desire for evidence. (By evidence, I'm talking scientific experiments and research going into it, and seeing if it holds up to scrutiny. That these experiments can be repeated by other scientists, and shown to be true) I just can't find any Christian who understands me. Not that I'm being selfish or full of myself either. The things I ask about should be expected, yet I'm the only one it seems who cares.
The most well known creationists out there (Those at Answers in Genesis, Creation Magazine Live, and so on), don't have anything to show for what they are saying. All they do is try to poke holes into things like Common Descent Evolution and the Big Bang Theory. Where is the evidence for your side people? It's kind of like hating on those who are succesful, saying they aren't really who they say they are, and yet your the biggest hypocrite of them all! The best they can offer is pretty much blind speculation. For instance, the reason why stars are so far away and we can see it's light, is because of a special time dilation effect. That the earth is sitting in something called a gravity well and so on, and so on, and so on. Okay, the earth is sitting in a gravity well, where are the experiments and study helping to prove this blind speculation? They stop at the blind speculation, and say "See, creation makes sense". Am I the only creationist who wants actual evidence and study, who expects it?
If there are creationists here who thinks like me, let's have a good discussion in this topic. Let's talk about some possible studies that can be had to test for creationism. Let's not ignore the fact there is much observable evidence that points toward common descent evolution, and why that is. Let's just get as deep as we can because I have a lot of things to say which most Christians and creationists (not every Christian is a literal creationist) just don't understand, and don't want to understand.
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that the Bible describes anything about the history of the world. It is a spiritual book . . . to be read spiritually . . . that describes the spiritual evolution of the understanding of God, period. It is not a science book and it is not a history book. It is a spiritual book. . . the understanding of which is foolishness to the natural man.
Well, you might do a little research into the different types of literature in the Bible. You are assuming that Genesis is history.
It must be history. Of course I know about the Documentary Hypothesis due to past discussions in the open forum, but concerning Christ, our history in Adam must be literal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that the Bible describes anything about the history of the world. It is a spiritual book . . . to be read spiritually . . . that describes the spiritual evolution of the understanding of God, period. It is not a science book and it is not a history book. It is a spiritual book. . . the understanding of which is foolishness to the natural man.
Let me ask you this question. Could the natural man understand that Jesus did miracles, or do we take those things as fable to?
If there are creationists here who thinks like me, let's have a good discussion in this topic. Let's talk about some possible studies that can be had to test for creationism. Let's not ignore the fact there is much observable evidence that points toward common descent evolution, and why that is. Let's just get as deep as we can because I have a lot of things to say which most Christians and creationists (not every Christian is a literal creationist) just don't understand, and don't want to understand.
I think creationists who think the world was created in 4004BC are wrong and don't realize a simple fact. And please realize you have no biblical evidence to go by that would suggest a 10,000 or 12,000 year old world. It's either 6000 years based on doing the number and genealogy game or nothing.
Regarding the first part of Genesis:
I view the first part of the book of Genesis as basically saying that Godcreated everything. It should be noted that Genesis was written for the Hebrewmindset. We (westerners) are of the Greek mindset. By Greek I mean we followthe Greek way of thinking and looking at the world. We want precise answers,facts, figures order of occurrence and dates.
The Hebrew mindset is primarily interested in concepts, with facts and figuresbeing secondary. What mattered to the Hebrews is that God created the Universe.The order and time of the events were not important to the Hebrew mind.
As I see it you run into problems applying Greek thinking to a Hebrew document.That is why the creation story does not make sense to the scientific mind. Ofcourse we always must bear in mind that God is not limited to obey the laws ofnature. So, if God wanted to create the universe in six, 24 hour days He could.
And so what is the problem? So what if the Universe is 4.5 billion years old.
I think creationists who think the world was created in 4004BC are wrong and don't realize a simple fact. And please realize you have no biblical evidence to go by that would suggest a 10,000 or 12,000 year old world. It's either 6000 years based on doing the number and genealogy game or nothing.
Regarding the first part of Genesis:
I view the first part of the book of Genesis as basically saying that Godcreated everything. It should be noted that Genesis was written for the Hebrewmindset. We (westerners) are of the Greek mindset. By Greek I mean we followthe Greek way of thinking and looking at the world. We want precise answers,facts, figures order of occurrence and dates.
The Hebrew mindset is primarily interested in concepts, with facts and figuresbeing secondary. What mattered to the Hebrews is that God created the Universe.The order and time of the events were not important to the Hebrew mind.
As I see it you run into problems applying Greek thinking to a Hebrew document.That is why the creation story does not make sense to the scientific mind. Ofcourse we always must bear in mind that God is not limited to obey the laws ofnature. So, if God wanted to create the universe in six, 24 hour days He could.
And so what is the problem? So what if the Universe is 4.5 billion years old.
I here what you're saying concerning how we look at the Scriptures, and how the people back then would have viewed them. However, if it's true they didn't care about any kind of details other than God created everything, why all the stories concerning Adam and Eve and so on? Why not just say God created everything, and then go on to talk about Abraham, the father of the Israelites?
Also, it is important overall because if the universe and earth came about as our observation tells us, more specifically if things like common descent is true, then the Gospel just doesn't make sense. Why is God mad at how we are, if He created us exactly like how we are? In fact, we are better today than yesterday, as we continue to adapt and evolve. If what science tells us is true, we can really say, "What's the problem?" and what's the point of Christianity?
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that the Bible describes anything about the history of the world. It is a spiritual book . . . to be read spiritually . . . that describes the spiritual evolution of the understanding of God, period. It is not a science book and it is not a history book. It is a spiritual book. . . the understanding of which is foolishness to the natural man.
The Bible is about God revealing Himself through human history. It is both spiritual and historical (in a limited scope).
The problem with 'creationism' vs 'evolution' is not with the truth of what the Bible says, (or even with what 'science' clearly proves ... which certainly isn't either evolution or a 'big bang theory), but, with what people choose to accept as their basis of truth.
Immediately, in the first ten words of the Bible, one must make a decision about what they are reading: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." This determination (is this fact, fiction, fable, God's Word .... what?) will largely influence what one does with the next 66 Books of the Bible. One who categorically 'throws out' this first statement in the Bible, will have a very difficult time NOT justifying the same treatment of anything else they do not find to their liking.
The 'wisdom of men' would have logically buried this little tidbit (along, perhaps, with the entire first two chapters of Genesis) back somewhere in Habukuk or another relatively obscure book. But, then, God makes foolish the wisdom of the wise ... who would today choose to simply 'spiritualize' or otherwise discount His true and Holy Word. Perhaps, within your father’s Bible Study Group, you are the one who does not yet understand about the ‘deeper aspects of faith.’
It must be history. Of course I know about the Documentary Hypothesis due to past discussions in the open forum, but concerning Christ, our history in Adam must be literal.
Thanks for the reference to the documentary hypothesis, I didn't know about it, at least not specifically, but I was not talking about sources of the literature, but the genre.
Why "must" our "history in Adam" be literal rather than poetic or mythic? (Please don't be put off by the word "myth," it is NOT about "fairy tales," but about a very valid form of literature used to characterize essential perceptions of a society. Mythology is a serious study in anthropology)
Thanks for the reference to the documentary hypothesis, I didn't know about it, at least not specifically, but I was not talking about sources of the literature, but the genre.
Why "must" our "history in Adam" be literal rather than poetic or mythic? (Please don't be put off by the word "myth," it is NOT about "fairy tales," but about a very valid form of literature used to characterize essential perceptions of a society. Mythology is a serious study in anthropology)
It can be poetic as well, but in order to say God says anything relevant with our lives, it must be literal. Christianity is based on Genesis being literal history overall. You can't understand Jesus' mission, unless it is literal. The NT basically tells us that God is going to redo the whole creation at the very end of Jesus' thousand year reign, that is there will be a new heavens (what we know as the universe) and new earth. He's basically going to purify everything with fire. (We don't know what this process is specifically concerning the fire) That is the ultimate teaching the NT gives us. Something is wrong with this creation, and something is wrong with us. The history given in Adam is the only explanation to what's going on. If that never happened, we have a very big problem for those who are Christian. Of course many Christians would deny this, but I've never heard another credible explanation other than the history of Adam.
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