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I appreciate your perspective on this JerZ. You make a compelling argument and I agree with much of what you're saying. One thing I noticed, however, is that you said "...God sending an alcoholic to an eternal bar..." Thrill isn't saying it's an eternal fate, but rather that these people will be helped to clear their cravings, as they desire.
IF, just if, there is a continuation of our consciousness after physical death, wouldn't it make sense that it's not just a snap of the fingers and everything within you that gave you problems in this life will be instantaneously changed? Our life in the here and now, at least, doesn't indicate that that is how things operate.
So, let's say that an addict's physical cravings cease at physical death. What would remain would be the psychological cravings. If that person were to suddenly be thrust into an environment where they couldn't quench those psychological cravings ... what would the outcome be? I don't know. But perhaps it would be much kinder to allow them to "vicariously" experience the satisfying of those psychological cravings until they have been prepared to overcome those cravings?
Another thought as far as addiction is concerned... I'm of the opinion that every one of us experiences addiction(s) of some sort on this earth. Addictions to physical substances are just the tip of the iceberg... they are the addictions that people can happen to see. There are many more addictions that can't be seen and people need to be free of those just as much as a physical addiction. Those psychological cravings, through years of our habitually capitulating to them, have sort of been ingrained into the fabric of who we are, and to have them ripped suddenly from us would perhaps be too much of a shock to our system. Wouldn't a more gradual process of healing from those addictions be kinder and gentler?
Based on Dr Eben Alexander’s Proof of Heaven, which I have just listened to (audio book), it does kind of undermine scripture which says that Jesus Christ is the way to the Father, and “no-one comes to Father except through Him”. Alexander’s experience is typical of many NDE’s where people do not meet JC, but have spiritually transformative experiences (STE’s) during near-death and come back with a non-JC focused / based belief system.
Firstly, I don’t think Jesus would get uptight about this. He was always about pointing people to the Father, much the same as ‘we’ (Fundie’s / Christian believers) have always been about pointing people to JC. It’s the principle of others being more important than ones-self that I think God is trying to bring about in people. The books stops with Daddy, of course, but even then, He’s bigger than the book, …and that might just be the point.
Secondly, if JC is the Word made flesh, the Emmanuel - God with us, then the focus could be arguably said to be on The Word, or God part, and not a legal tick box or a claimant some may make as to having an advocate, in a personal representative. Imbibing and living in and out that Word is one and the same thing as knowing JC, even if you’d never heard about Him.
Thirdly, an emphasis on JC has dangerous consequences with respect to future-ism in terms of doctrinal exegesis of key eschatological ideas that have not yet occurred, and there has to be some – “it is written” remember. If Abba is birthing STE’s into the world at large, independent of world faith-religious systems (and everything that is exalted will be brought low) what exactly is a coming kingdom of God going to look like….!? I’ve already ditched a literal second coming (plus JC isn’t going to kill unbelievers/anyone at large – he didn’t the ‘first time’ He came), in favour of manifest sons of God and the God’s kingdom covering the whole earth, as the waters cover the sea. The thing I’m thinking about now is the definition of ‘overcomers’ –partaking in the sonship – or whatever the ecclesia is (or chosen are) about –people who believe JC is Lord, or is it simply those who overcome the flesh and evil desires, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, who have been born from above, however Abba has decided.
There seem to be too many people having positive NDE’s that don’t hang their hat on JC, that to make His acceptance before death into an issue, is a definable point of dogma. Abba seems to be bigger than that; allowing people to experience unconditional love, acceptance, peace, serenity, freedom from pain, meeting passed loved ones, enjoying the scenery – a truly Spiritual Transformative Experience…
…before getting the ticket off JC.
But, I still believe JC is Lord, and I can’t think why I wouldn’t.
I appreciate your perspective on this JerZ. You make a compelling argument and I agree with much of what you're saying. One thing I noticed, however, is that you said "...God sending an alcoholic to an eternal bar..." Thrill isn't saying it's an eternal fate, but rather that these people will be helped to clear their cravings, as they desire.
IF, just if, there is a continuation of our consciousness after physical death, wouldn't it make sense that it's not just a snap of the fingers and everything within you that gave you problems in this life will be instantaneously changed? Our life in the here and now, at least, doesn't indicate that that is how things operate.
So, let's say that an addict's physical cravings cease at physical death. What would remain would be the psychological cravings. If that person were to suddenly be thrust into an environment where they couldn't quench those psychological cravings ... what would the outcome be? I don't know. But perhaps it would be much kinder to allow them to "vicariously" experience the satisfying of those psychological cravings until they have been prepared to overcome those cravings?
Another thought as far as addiction is concerned... I'm of the opinion that every one of us experiences addiction(s) of some sort on this earth. Addictions to physical substances are just the tip of the iceberg... they are the addictions that people can happen to see. There are many more addictions that can't be seen and people need to be free of those just as much as a physical addiction. Those psychological cravings, through years of our habitually capitulating to them, have sort of been ingrained into the fabric of who we are, and to have them ripped suddenly from us would perhaps be too much of a shock to our system. Wouldn't a more gradual process of healing from those addictions be kinder and gentler?
Yes, what could be a more powerful psychological craving for some women than that of "bad boys". Hopefully, in the afterlife the "bad boys" get theirs, while the women they abused get their knight in shining armor.
Based on Dr Eben Alexander’s Proof of Heaven, which I have just listened to (audio book), it does kind of undermine scripture which says that Jesus Christ is the way to the Father, and “no-one comes to Father except through Himâ€. Alexander’s experience is typical of many NDE’s where people do not meet JC, but have spiritually transformative experiences (STE’s) during near-death and come back with a non-JC focused / based belief system.
Firstly, I don’t think Jesus would get uptight about this. He was always about pointing people to the Father, much the same as ‘we’ (Fundie’s / Christian believers) have always been about pointing people to JC. It’s the principle of others being more important than ones-self that I think God is trying to bring about in people. The books stops with Daddy, of course, but even then, He’s bigger than the book, …and that might just be the point.
Secondly, if JC is the Word made flesh, the Emmanuel - God with us, then the focus could be arguably said to be on The Word, or God part, and not a legal tick box or a claimant some may make as to having an advocate, in a personal representative. Imbibing and living in and out that Word is one and the same thing as knowing JC, even if you’d never heard about Him.
Thirdly, an emphasis on JC has dangerous consequences with respect to future-ism in terms of doctrinal exegesis of key eschatological ideas that have not yet occurred, and there has to be some – “it is written†remember. If Abba is birthing STE’s into the world at large, independent of world faith-religious systems (and everything that is exalted will be brought low) what exactly is a coming kingdom of God going to look like….!? I’ve already ditched a literal second coming (plus JC isn’t going to kill unbelievers/anyone at large – he didn’t the ‘first time’ He came), in favour of manifest sons of God and the God’s kingdom covering the whole earth, as the waters cover the sea. The thing I’m thinking about now is the definition of ‘overcomers’ –partaking in the sonship – or whatever the ecclesia is (or chosen are) about –people who believe JC is Lord, or is it simply those who overcome the flesh and evil desires, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, who have been born from above, however Abba has decided.
There seem to be too many people having positive NDE’s that don’t hang their hat on JC, that to make His acceptance before death into an issue, is a definable point of dogma. Abba seems to be bigger than that; allowing people to experience unconditional love, acceptance, peace, serenity, freedom from pain, meeting passed loved ones, enjoying the scenery – a truly Spiritual Transformative Experience…
…before getting the ticket off JC.
But, I still believe JC is Lord, and I can’t think why I wouldn’t.
Excellent witness. Jesus is WHY we have the Holy Spirit (Comforter) to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." When we "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't . . . we are following Jesus whether or not we even know He exists. What Jesus did He did for our entire species and we have nothing to do with it.
Yes, what could be a more powerful psychological craving for some women than that of "bad boys". Hopefully, in the afterlife the "bad boys" get theirs, while the women they abused get their knight in shining armor.
Well, secretly, me too But if I'd said that in the relationships forum I have been hit on all sides by the feminists in there. I'd show you the scars, but...well...
Well, secretly, me too But if I'd said that in the relationships forum I have been hit on all sides by the feminists in there. I'd show you the scars, but...well...
Yep in some forums they beat up up on those who disagree with them. Here the non believers and sorta believers beat up on everyone else.
Yep in some forums they beat up up on those who disagree with them. Here the non believers and sorta believers beat up on everyone else.
Yup... And the full-on believers beat up on the non-believers and sorta-believers...this forum is special...it is an equal-opportunity-beater-upper forum!
Yup... And the full-on believers beat up on the non-believers and sorta-believers...this forum is special...it is an equal-opportunity-beater-upper forum!
Anita Moorjani is an interesting case by virtue of the fact she was spontaneously cured of non-Hogkins lymphoma when it was in the last stages and her body was filled with cancerous tumors. However, as I understand it, I could be wrong, she has not released her medical records, although a certain legitimate Dr. Peter Ko has confirmed that he treated her and she was at death's door when she had her purported experience.
Fair warning: stay away from Dannion Brinkley, Mellen-Thomas Benedict and Nanci Danielson. The first two have been implicated in frauds and Danielson is so far out there in left field (and her "death" not-verified by medical experts) that I would not believe a words she says. I also skip Mary Neal simply because her"death" also was out in the wild and cannot be medically verified.
My favorites are George Ritchie, Howard Storm and Pam Reynolds. Their deaths have been medically documented and studied voluminously by nearly all the experts in this field, especially Pam Reynolds'. And there are tons of videos on YouTube of them telling their stories, so many in fact that you really don't need to spend money, unless of course you want to.
Yep.
Doesn't Storm talk of hell though? As in he believes there is a hell where we can end up?
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Hopefully, in the afterlife the "bad boys" get theirs, while the women they abused get their knight in shining armor.
And the full-on believers beat up on the non-believers and sorta-believers...this forum is special...it is an equal-opportunity-beater-upper forum! 
