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Preterist, preterist, preterist. I'll tell you what. If you really feel that it's normal and okay to go to the Tanners, who don't live my faith, in order to find info about my faith then I'll tell you what. I'm assuming you're Baptist. Right? Fine. If I ever want to do research on the Baptist faith, you know what, I'm not going to go to an actual person who IS Baptist. No. I'm going to find someone WHO IS NOT Baptist to do my research like, oh, Jehovah's Witnesses. Yeah. That's okay and normal, right? I'm sure they'll be glad to give me an earful about what you believe even though their not actually Baptists. But, what does that matter right?
Oh Preterist, gee, I wonder why folks say we don't follow Christ with a name like THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS? I guess we're just trying to fool folks, huh with that kind of name.
Dear Annibelle: I am not Baptist. I think I have mentioned before that I belong to no denomination and claim no affiliation. My source for all doctrine is the Word of God. Insofar as any group adheres to it, I am aligned with it. But insofar as any group digresses from it, I withdraw from it.
Furthermore, Annibelle, it is an easy thing to simply place someone's name in a title. Your having Jesus' name in the title of your "church" does not make you a true follower of the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus Christ is your title is the Jesus Christ invented by Mormonism and is not He Who is found in the Word of God alone.
Actually, I believe your leaders are attempting to fool people. It is expedient to come under the umbrella of Christianity--it helps give Mormonism a legitimacy it does not enjoy on its own and thereby opens doors of opportunity that have previously been closed. But the fact remains, that Mormonism teaches another gospel and another Jesus. Such diversity causes confusion to the unsaved world. This diversity is evident even in the realm of Christendom as seen in the great number of denominations.
The fact remains that there is one truth concerning the character of God and the deity of Christ. Where there are opposing views of the "truth," either one is wrong and the other is right or both are wrong and something else is right. They cannot both be right! There cannot be the Jesus of Mormonism and the Jesus of the Bible. The two are mutually exclusive.
Why will you not deal with the legitimate accusations against your church and its doctrine of Christology? Let's forget the Tanners. Let's look at your Book of Mormon. What does it contain and what does it teach? Are its precepts in line with God's Word--the Bible? What about the Doctrine and Covenants? Do you believe in the things contained therein? Do the teachings in the Doc. and Cov. line up with the teachings of the Bible? One cannot believe in the teachings of two books which have opposing "truths."
I am merely challenging you as I challenge myself and others--why do we believe what we believe? Can we and should we trust those who teach us? What is the basis of our faith? Any group that discourages someone from investigating the things he is being taught is suspect. "Study to show YOURSELF approved unto God, a workman not needing to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of thruth" (2 Tim. 2:15). We are all individually responsible to seek out God's truth. That means investigating even those things our leaders teach us. Even the great Apostle Paul's teachings came under the laudable scrutiny of the Bereans who seached the Scriptures daily to see whether Paul was teaching the truth!
I am sorry that you are taking all of this so personally. It is not meant that way. Can we discuss things in a rational manner by giving credible support for the things we believe? I am not interested in opinions--not even my own. What saith the Scriptures? Since we both accept the Bible as authoritative, why can we not glean our doctrine from there? Or perhaps we could study the Doctrine and Covenants. I have a copy and I am not opposed to doing so.
This is a good question. In my experience, the LDS church (to distinguish it from other Mormon churches) is less accepting of diversity in belief than the liberal mainline Protestant churches I have attended. In the last 20 years or so, the manuals for Sunday School and other church classes have become more correlated. The idea is that you would hear the same basic Sunday School lesson on a given Sunday in any Mormon congregation you attended. Certainly you won't find, for example, a Mormon ward that gives women the priesthood. (Actually, I heard about this happening once in South America, but the leaders in Salt Lake rectified the situation once they learned of it.)
However, Mormons are individuals just like anyone else, and so beliefs will differ from person to person. Sometimes Mormons that vary a bit from official doctrine are referred to as Cafeteria Mormons or Liahona Mormons, although I don't think these terms are used by or familiar to most Mormons. In general, what you will hear in church will be the official position. You are more likely to hear of differing beliefs in one-on-one conversations.
I guess what I am saying is that you probably can't fairly say "here is what Mormons believe" and have it be accurate for all Mormons but you can fairly say "here is what the LDS church teaches now."
Of course, what you often get on message boards is people bringing up something said by an early church prophet or leader, but which really most current Mormons don't believe or possibly even know about. And then the waters get muddied.
How would you, of all people, know what most current Mormons don't believe or possibly even know about if you don't go to the church? Isn't that like me saying I know what most current muslims believe since my aunt is muslim? I wouldn't say it because I'm not sure what they do or what they know unless I'm actually a member of that faith. Yes, I know I make some members cringe with my comments, but it almost seems fruitless. It isn't fair to have someone who is not a member try to represent what current mormons actually believe. By the way, I knew what the older leaders said before joining. I joined anyway. What you often get on message boards are people, who don't go to the lds church anymore because they don't agree with it's teaching leave the church but then turn around and try to teach it because they can't figure out why they can't leave the doctrine alone.
Last edited by annibelle; 01-15-2008 at 01:21 PM..
Reason: additions
Dear Annibelle: I am not Baptist. I think I have mentioned before that I belong to no denomination and claim no affiliation. My source for all doctrine is the Word of God. Insofar as any group adheres to it, I am aligned with it. But insofar as any group digresses from it, I withdraw from it.
Furthermore, Annibelle, it is an easy thing to simply place someone's name in a title. Your having Jesus' name in the title of your "church" does not make you a true follower of the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus Christ is your title is the Jesus Christ invented by Mormonism and is not He Who is found in the Word of God alone.
Actually, I believe your leaders are attempting to fool people. It is expedient to come under the umbrella of Christianity--it helps give Mormonism a legitimacy it does not enjoy on its own and thereby opens doors of opportunity that have previously been closed. But the fact remains, that Mormonism teaches another gospel and another Jesus. Such diversity causes confusion to the unsaved world. This diversity is evident even in the realm of Christendom as seen in the great number of denominations.
The fact remains that there is one truth concerning the character of God and the deity of Christ. Where there are opposing views of the "truth," either one is wrong and the other is right or both are wrong and something else is right. They cannot both be right! There cannot be the Jesus of Mormonism and the Jesus of the Bible. The two are mutually exclusive.
Why will you not deal with the legitimate accusations against your church and its doctrine of Christology? Let's forget the Tanners. Let's look at your Book of Mormon. What does it contain and what does it teach? Are its precepts in line with God's Word--the Bible? What about the Doctrine and Covenants? Do you believe in the things contained therein? Do the teachings in the Doc. and Cov. line up with the teachings of the Bible? One cannot believe in the teachings of two books which have opposing "truths."
I am merely challenging you as I challenge myself and others--why do we believe what we believe? Can we and should we trust those who teach us? What is the basis of our faith? Any group that discourages someone from investigating the things he is being taught is suspect. "Study to show YOURSELF approved unto God, a workman not needing to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of thruth" (2 Tim. 2:15). We are all individually responsible to seek out God's truth. That means investigating even those things our leaders teach us. Even the great Apostle Paul's teachings came under the laudable scrutiny of the Bereans who seached the Scriptures daily to see whether Paul was teaching the truth!
I am sorry that you are taking all of this so personally. It is not meant that way. Can we discuss things in a rational manner by giving credible support for the things we believe? I am not interested in opinions--not even my own. What saith the Scriptures? Since we both accept the Bible as authoritative, why can we not glean our doctrine from there? Or perhaps we could study the Doctrine and Covenants. I have a copy and I am not opposed to doing so.
Preterist
Well, well, well, thanks so much for your honesty in that you actually belong to - no denomination. That still doesn't explain how or why you think you have some type of authority to tell me what I believe after I've studied it for almost 2 years prior to joining and lived it for almost 20 years. So, after teaching people that lds believe satan is our spiritual brother, now you want to talk rationally huh? That's nice.
I will grant that you believe you are speaking with authority based on what you know from the Bible. However, that is your belief, based on your understanding, from your study.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
the fact remains, that Mormonism teaches another gospel and another Jesus
This is where the arrogance begins to show. It is not a “fact” that Mormonism teaches another gospel. That is your opinion, and opinions can be correct or incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
The fact remains that there is one truth concerning the character of God and the deity of Christ.
I agree with this line. However, you assume that you have it and we don’t. You base your assumption on your best understanding, but again, it is YOUR understanding and belief, and not universally accepted by those other than yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
legitimate accusations against your church and its doctrine of Christology?
I don’t believe the accusations you have brought up against our Church are “legitimate.” The conveyance of the findings was done to purposely scare and mislead those who would not look in more detail at the methodology of research and reporting. We have already responded as to why we don’t accept your accusations as legitimate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
There cannot be the Jesus of Mormonism and the Jesus of the Bible. The two are mutually exclusive.
See my response to quote number 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
The Jesus Christ is your title is the Jesus Christ invented by Mormonism and is not He Who is found in the Word of God alone..
Again arrogance. You sincerely believe that we are not following the correct Christ. But I say to you as LDS members, “ we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.” (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:26). I know Christ lives. I know that he atoned for my sins. I know Christ is my Savior. The Christ I believe in was not invented. So quit telling me that because I don’t accept your individual understanding of Christendom that I do not have access the sacrifice that Christ made available for all people who will come to him.
How would you, of all people, know what most current Mormons don't believe or possibly even know about if you don't go to the church? Isn't that like me saying I know what most current muslims believe since my aunt is muslim? I wouldn't say it because I'm not sure what they do or what they know unless I'm actually a member of that faith. Yes, I know I make some members cringe with my comments, but it almost seems fruitless. It isn't fair to have someone who is not a member try to represent what current mormons actually believe. By the way, I knew what the older leaders said before joining. I joined anyway. What you often get on message boards are people, who don't go to the lds church anymore because they don't agree with it's teaching leave the church but then turn around and try to teach it because they can't figure out why they can't leave the doctrine alone.
Annibelle, the moderators have said that everyone has an equal right to post to these threads. If you don't like the fact that I post, feel free to ignore my posts. Or feel free to argue about the ideas in my posts. But stop flying off the handle just because I post. We all know how you feel about it.
Do you actually read the posts? Or just look to see if the poster is Mormon or not and respond based on what you think they will say?
Read the post you were responding to. Did I list a specific Mormon belief anywhere in the post? No. I merely said that in my experience not all Mormons believe exactly the same thing. And that not all current Mormons agree with every statement made by every previous church leader. But that in general the congregations within the Mormon church are more consistent in what they teach as doctrine than are congregations in other denominations with which I am familiar.
If you disagree with any of those statements, feel free to present your views.
Annibelle, the moderators have said that everyone has an equal right to post to these threads. If you don't like the fact that I post, feel free to ignore my posts. Or feel free to argue about the ideas in my posts. But stop flying off the handle just because I post. We all know how you feel about it.
Do you actually read the posts? Or just look to see if the poster is Mormon or not and respond based on what you think they will say?
Read the post you were responding to. Did I list a specific Mormon belief anywhere in the post? No. I merely said that in my experience not all Mormons believe exactly the same thing. And that not all current Mormons agree with every statement made by every previous church leader. But that in general the congregations within the Mormon church are more consistent in what they teach as doctrine than are congregations in other denominations with which I am familiar.
If you disagree with any of those statements, feel free to present your views.
If you think that I'm "flying off the handle", you need to go back and read the posts. You are reading too much into the threads. You need to check yourself that's all. I did respond to another post saying, yes, it's true that not all mormons think like robots and robotically repeat what their leaders say. I even explained how some lds respond differently. So, you need to go back and read. Of course everyone has a right to respond, you just have to understand that you and everyone will get responses. What's hard about that? I'm doing exactly what you're doing: responding to what I know. You just don't like my responses. That's fine. I just don't agree with yours. That's all. Try not to be so offended. I mean, is it your church people are trying to represent or mine?
I mean, is it your church people are trying to represent or mine?
If anybody here is trying to "represent" the Mormon church, then nobody is doing a very good job.
Sorry to disrupt this personal blog, er, thread - but this is getting a bit difficult to ignore - can I use my "ignore" feature on a thread topic?
I'd rather read about more peaceful topics like homosexuality and evolution.
Of course, what you often get on message boards is people bringing up something said by an early church prophet or leader, but which really most current Mormons don't believe or possibly even know about. And then the waters get muddied.[/quote]
Okay, in all fairness, I'm rereading the quote. Now, help me understand. How can you, not a member, say what we don't believe or possibly don't even know about or how we think now? You can't come on the board, make broad generalizations about what lds believe and then when I, and lds person, respond to it, get snippity. Of course , you have a right to your views, but you seem unwilling to accept mine, an acutal lds person, who would know better than you. We don't have to agree, but what I'm saying is that whose view is more valid? Your views are valid, but how much meat do they have if you are not a member?
If anybody here is trying to "represent" the Mormon church, then nobody is doing a very good job.
Sorry to disrupt this personal blog, er, thread - but this is getting a bit difficult to ignore - can I use my "ignore" feature on a thread topic?
I'd rather read about more peaceful topics like homosexuality and evolution.
You're funny. Thanks for the humor. I needed to take a breath.
Ok, I apologize if I offend anyone. Not my intentions here.
Bottome line is this, To be Christain you MUST believe The Trinity, that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are ONE IN THE SAME! No and, if's or buts! No exceptions. Sorry that's just the way it is. Mormons don't believe this.
On another note, I've searched this Thread for a certain word; Repent. To be saved you must REPENT trust the savior, and turn from sin, confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. This is a very important concept to remember.
I will end in saying this: Because we live in the great country we're allowed to worship whomever we please. Not so in other countries we know this. I often use the "What If" game with people I talk to. What If I'm right and your wrong? I'll be in a great place while you will not. Your choice!
Sorry, if this was covered, then my bad!
God Bless....
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