Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
But since I know that the concept of eternal torment is completely at odds with the overarching truth that GOD IS LOVE, I know that I can discount that possibility, right off the bat.
God is not only loving, He is just and holy and cannot excuse sin, as that would defy His very nature. Eternal torment is completely just and fair for those who sin against Him. It is his mercy and love that sent Jesus to provide a way to fulfill both attributes perfectly.
exactly .... string along a little from here and there while ignoring others and one has a very seductive but deadly venom,
which it's poster saying is
...........God is Love .... Agape love ....and that is all
....... and that is all I want to know ...................
You really are hilarious. Scripture calls the love of God the greatest and that in loving your neighbor you fulfill the whole law,so why would you want to know anything else other than tbe love that God has for you?. You will never ever be able to show the love of God unless you first know that you are loved yourself. Now if this is human reason and emotion.......sign me up.
Anything we possess if it is not infused with love is worthless. Read 1 Corinthians 13
Your faith in all your beliefs are worthless unless they are expressed through love. Gal 5:6
For you boys who keep banging on about emotion. Did you know the dictionary defines the word inspire as being emotionally charged?.
God is not only loving, He is just and holy and cannot excuse sin, as that would defy His very nature. Eternal torment is completely just and fair for those who sin against Him. It is his mercy and love that sent Jesus to provide a way to fulfill both attributes perfectly.
You do not know the bible never mind Jesus Christ
If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? Psalm 130:3
Your obsession with sin and especially sin in another is blinding you.
You have asked me the same question about Matthew 18 several times and I answered . . . yet you accuse me of being a liar:::Sigh:: So now I am a liar. Did you not read this post in answer to your question on Matthew 18????
You ignored my questions and asked me if I agreed with your interpretation yet? I answered with this post:
I tried to clarify the problem with your blind faith approach to scripture to no avail.
I have said what I mean mean multiple times . . . but since it is NOT what YOU mean you call me a liar or son of Satan and say I haven't answered. YOUR interpretation of the teaching is wrong, IMO. There is no agape love in your view and that makes it incompatible with God.
This is not an answer. Jesus says, "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother."
So should we go to our brother or not? Should we show him his fault or not? Jesus says yes and so do I.
For the purpose of explaining what I see in the bible that fits together like pieces of a puzzle, and magnifies what I believe holds everything together: God is LOVE.
The "condemned already" part of that passage has been discussed ad nauseum, so I know that you understand that you and I understand it very, very differently.
I don't think you and I have ever discussed the "wrath of God" passages, however. Now, hell-believers immediately equate "wrath of God" with eternal torment. But since I know that the concept of eternal torment is completely at odds with the overarching truth that GOD IS LOVE, I know that I can discount that possibility, right off the bat.
Putting it in the context of the overarching truth that GOD IS LOVE, helps. I think that the authors of the bible used the term "orge" of God because it best described their understanding of God's passion for our well-being. Love is like that -- passionate about the well-being of others. And I believe Rom. 1:8 sheds light, since according to that passage, God's "wrath" is against unrighteousness (whatever is out of harmony with love). That's because being out of harmony with love harms us all.
This isn't a great analogy, but I'll use it anyway ... If you're a little kid and you're holding a bottle of poison up to your lips on the verge of drinking it, and your mom sees you, what's she gonna do? Knock it out of your hand, in whatever way is necessary. The violent force that is used to get that bottle away from you might even cause pain for you.
Now, I don't think that God is actually going around knocking the sin out of people. But I do think that the spiritual principles that rule us because of the very nature of God (LOVE) who is the Foundation of our reality, act on us in such a way that it might feel like it. Love is so violently at odds with NON-love, that being caught in the cross-fire between them is going to be rough. So, by all means, get out of the cross-fire by believing that God is for you, not against you, and by abiding in God's love, and allowing it to rule you.
Wonderful witness, Pleroo! It will fall on deaf ears among the fundamentalists, I am afraid . . . as you know all too well having been one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
They argue that to tell a person living in unrepentant sin that he is a sinner is uncompassionate and unloving. This is like arguing that a physician is unloving because he tells a patient she has cancer.
Biblical Christians know that compassion requires telling the truth, and refusing to call sin something sinless. To hide or deny the sinfulness of sin is to lie, and there is no compassion in such a deadly deception.
True compassion demands speaking the truth in love.
What do you know . . . right on time! QED!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
"They" argue that it is the truth about the LOVE OF GOD that leads people to repentance, not Christians shaming them, disassociating them, or terrifying them with threats of eternal hell.
Amen and amen, Pleroo!!! The love of God is strong in you!
This is not an answer. Jesus says, "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother."
So should we go to our brother or not? Should we show him his fault or not? Jesus says yes and so do I.
So I will ask you again, do you agree with Jesus?
I will ask you a question what Jesus asked hypocrites. Why behold the speck of dust in your brothers eye ?
Please explain the teachings of Christ in Matthew 18.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
It was spoken for those who do not know how to forgive. Like a bill of divorce Moses wrote for those whose hearts were hardened. Have you unmerciful servants read the the whole of Matt 18
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times
Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
I really do appreciate the way you help me to see things I've never seen before, Pcamps.
I will ask you a question what Jesus asked hypocrites. Why behold the speck of dust in your brothers eye ?
Do you not learn? This passage was not saying to refrain from removing specks, but no to remove specks if you are guilty of the same. The whole chapter was speaking of hypocrisy. This proves nothing.
You have asked me the same question about Matthew 18 several times and I answered . . . yet you accuse me of being a liar:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
You liar. You did not explain anything. Jesus said specific words and sentences, explain them to mend they do not mean what they actually say. Get out your Rosetta Stone and tell us what Jesus actually meant? You can't, that's why you dodge the question time and time again.
::Sigh:: So now I am a liar. Did you not read this post in answer to your question on Matthew 18????
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You mean this passage:
Matthew 18:15-17King James Version (KJV)
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
This refers to someone trespassing against YOU . . . not just generally sinning. It is how you should try to forgive and reconcile with your brother . . . NOT judge him or condemn him. In other words, it has nothing to do with minding someone else's business!!!Just ask yourself if God NEEDS US to ENFORCE His rules on others? We all stand before God as individuals. It is our individual choices that determine who we are and how we stand in God's eyes. WHY would God WANT or NEED us to enforce His rules on anybody else. We are responsible for OUR choices, period. We will answer for OUR choices and reap whatever we sow . . . but never more or less than what we sow. So what do you think? Is your version agape loving or not?
You ignored my questions and asked me if I agreed with your interpretation yet? I answered with this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I do not agree with what I THINK you want this passage to mean. I THINK you want this passage to mean you can judge, condemn and through the church chastise and abandon your brother for trespassing against you. Agape love and the Lord's prayer would say NO!
I tried to clarify the problem with your blind faith approach to scripture to no avail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I have already done so . . . but it seems to have had no effect or impact on your hardened heart.Except that you mistake the Bible for the word of God when Christ is the Living Word of God and He abides with us. You clearly do NOT believe that or you would trust the Comforter to lead you to the truth God has "written in our hearts" without worrying about what the words "written in ink" and stone say.
John 5:39-40 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;
40 and ye do not will to come unto Me, that ye may have life;
John 14:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 John 2:27 (King James Version)
27But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.
I have said what I mean mean multiple times . . . but since it is NOT what YOU mean you call me a liar or son of Satan and say I haven't answered. YOUR interpretation of the teaching is wrong, IMO. There is no agape love in your view and that makes it incompatible with God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
This is not an answer. Jesus says, "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother."
So should we go to our brother or not? Should we show him his fault or not? Jesus says yes and so do I.
So I will ask you again, do you agree with Jesus?
It is an answer if you actually bother to read it instead of making your knee-jerk dismissal. Of course if someone harms YOU it makes sense to go to him in private and find out what is going on. Why don't you stop just rejecting anything I write and actually read it and try to comprehend it . . . instead of blurting out your dogma. I realize that actually thinking and analyzing things is not the strong suit of fundamentalists. They prefer rote memorized dogmatic responses. But it is not beyond your abilities to do so if you have the will to actually understand God and Jesus.
They argue that to tell a person living in unrepentant sin that he is a sinner is uncompassionate and unloving. This is like arguing that a physician is unloving because he tells a patient she has cancer.
Biblical Christians know that compassion requires telling the truth, and refusing to call sin something sinless. To hide or deny the sinfulness of sin is to lie, and there is no compassion in such a deadly deception.
True compassion demands speaking the truth in love.
Did Jesus go around telling the literal blind they were blind and those with a withered hand their hand was withered, the leper that he had leprosy, OR did he restore them to health by speaking life to them ?. Please keep sharing because you are helping orthodox christianity to fall apart at the seams.
The only ones he called blind were those who were spiritually blind.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
But I do think that the spiritual principles that rule us because of the very nature of God (LOVE) who is the Foundation of our reality, act on us in such a way that it might feel like it. Love is so violently at odds with NON-love, that being caught in the cross-fire between them is going to be rough. So, by all means, get out of the cross-fire by believing that God is for you, not against you, and by abiding in God's love, and allowing it to rule you.
It will fall on deaf ears among the fundamentalists, I am afraid . . . as you know all too well having been one.
