What was the purpose of Jesus death? (Corinthians, Gospel, punishment)
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Sorry, D, that does not follow. Being saved is the same in your analogy as going to the game. You equate your choice to not being saved, but there is no mention of that possibility in the quote. It does not say "invited to be saved" it says all ARE saved, especially believers. Now the best I can get out of that is that believers' salvation will be of a better quality somehow, and I will buy that.
Why do I get the feeling that you are approaching this from a position f "THAT can't be right" rather than "Can THAT be right?"
By now you can see that both the scripture is ignored--at least in its fullness, it is cherry-picked---AND the early church fathers' comments which I posted in #616 are also ignored.
In addition ShanaBrown has quoted numerous scriptures with dozens of posts--all either vilified or twisted to form a different religion than the faith of our fathers.
The difference, Finn, is that any hint that a believer shoulkd actually be demonstrating his faith sends you into a tizzy.
No, that is a lie.
We are saved for works, and believers want to demonstrate their faith. As a matter of fact, it is a good way to test your faith. Do you feel the urge to demonstrate it, and do you do it with joy, or do you feel you are required to do it, and do you do it out of obligation? Clearly you feel it is a requirement, which makes you a legalist.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 08-11-2014 at 01:25 PM..
Of cause it does. A Savior saves, the saving is done by him, not you bobbing up and down in the water shouting you are not God you are not a savior, do not dare come into this water to pull me out, or the savior waits for your permission for him to come and save you. . You would have to be suicidal to speak that way and he who is willing and able to save, would save you anyway.
This mentality that God needs your permission to be your savior is absurd.
When scripture plainly says Jesus atonement is for the whole world any indication people get that state otherwise is in error. So no I do not believe scripture indicates Jesus atonement is for only those that believe.
You shouldn't be surprised when others don't buy universal salvation. A simple reading of John 3 would certainly put some serious doubt in a person's mind.
From one of the great latter day Christian authors, C.S. Lewis
We are told that Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He disabled death itself. That is the formula. That is Christianity. That is what has to be believed. Any theories we build up as to how Christ's death did all this are, in my view, quite secondary: mere plans or diagrams to be left alone if they do not help us, and, even if they do help us, not to be confused with the thing itself. All the same, some of these theories are worth looking at.
The one most people have heard is the one about our being let off because Christ volunteered to bear a punishment instead of us. Now on the face of it that is a very silly theory. If God was prepared to let us off, why on earth did He not do so? And what possible point could there be in punishing an innocent person instead? None at all that I can see, if you are thinking of punishment in the police-court sense. On the other hand, if you think of a debt, there is plenty of point in a person who has some assets paying it on behalf of someone who has not. Or if you take "paying the penalty," not in the sense of being punished, but in the more general sense of "footing the bill," then, of course, it is a matter of common experience that, when one person has got himself into a hole, the trouble of getting him out usually falls on a kind friend.
Now what was the sort of "hole" man had gotten himself into? He had tried to set up on his own, to behave as if he belonged to himself. In other words, fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. Laying down your arms, surrendering, saying you are sorry, realising that you have been on the wrong track and getting ready to start life over again from the ground floor - that is the only way out of a "hole." This process of surrender - this movement full speed astern - is what Christians call repentance. Now repentance is no fun at all. It is something much harder than merely eating humble pie. It means unlearning all the self-conceit and self-will that we have been training ourselves into for thousands of years. It means undergoing a kind of death. In fact, it needs a good man to repent. And here's the catch. Only a bad person needs to repent: only a good person can repent perfectly.The worse you are the more you need it and the less you can do it. The only person who could do it perfectly would be a perfect person - and he would not need it.
Remember, this repentance, this willing submission to humiliation and a kind of death, is not something God demands of you before He will take you back and which He could let you off of if He chose: it is simply a description of what going back to Him is like. If you ask God to take you back without it, you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back. It cannot happen. Very well, then, we must go through with it. But the same badness which makes us need it, makes us unable to do it. Can we do it if God helps us? Yes, but what do we mean when we talk of God helping us? We mean God putting into us a bit of Himself, so to speak. He lends us a little of His reasoning powers and that is how we think: He puts a little of His love into us and that is how we love one another. When you teach a child writing, you hold its hand while it forms the letters: that is, it forms the letters because you are forming them. We love and reason because God loves and reasons and holds our hand while we do it. Now if we had not fallen, that would all be plain sailing. But unfortunately we now need God's help in order to do something which God, in His own nature, never does at all - to surrender, to suffer, to submit, to die. Nothing in God's nature corresponds to this process at all. So that the one road for which we now need God's leadership most of all is a road God, in His own nature, has never walked. God can share only what He has: this thing, in His own nature, He has not.
But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person - then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all.
C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, (Fount Paperbacks, 1977), Chapter 4, The Perfect Penitent
Pneuma, is a true believer (Christian), one who refuses to take up his cross
and follow Christ? A true believer wants to follow Christ and live for Him.
Also one day Jesus will abolish all sin and death, removing any sinful
inclinations, rebelliousness and so on. The scapegoat took away the sin of the
world, even the rebellious sin. God deals with rebelliousness. God bless
Pneuma, please reread what I shared asked again. I don't see how you came to that conclusion. My point was that if a person is a true believer then they would want to pick up their cross and follow Christ, right? God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 08-11-2014 at 01:33 PM..
You shouldn't be surprised when others don't buy universal salvation. A simple reading of John 3 would certainly put some serious doubt in a person's mind.
Of cause it does. A Savior saves, the saving is done by him, not you bobbing up and down in the water shouting you are not God you are not a savior, do not dare come into this water to pull me out, or the savior waits for your permission for him to come and save you. . You would have to be suicidal to speak that way and he who is willing and able to save, would save you anyway.
This mentality that God needs your permission to be your savior is absurd.
No - God does not need our permission. He does the choosing.
No - God does not need our permission. He does the choosing.
He chose to save some from eternal hell( because this really is what you believe Jesus' death accomplished for the chosen few) and not others ?. You are chosen of cause.
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C. S. Lewis speaks
