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let's see, spend a gazillion dollar to remove a good set of rules for a society. with or without the god is unimportant. They don't have to put them on from now on but don't waste money removing them. And Humans need a focal point anyway. what should atheists have as this focal point for the masses? Does less god plus more liberals leads to a very dangerous society? I don't know the answer.
OR. Don't spend the money to put it there in the first place. How about not spending money to repair it, if that is planned.
OR. IF they are going to allow one religious monument then allow ANY religion to put theirs up too. So far the state decided that ONE religious monument was ok, but decided that no one else could put theirs up also.
Maybe put the big 10 monument in front of a church or in someones front yard and not on public property that is paid for with tax money from people of MANY religions not just that one.
Why? It's a Judeo-Christian culture. It's a monument to the culture.
Ummmm....... It's Oklahoma. Do you ever stop and think about the millions of Americans who are not Judeo-Christian and have non-Judeo-Christian cultures? We are a multicultural nation. Other people were here first. Other people, who don't share your culture, have since arrived.
For your much-needed education here's the first of those people:
Ummmm....... It's Oklahoma. Do you ever stop and think about the millions of Americans who are not Judeo-Christian and have non-Judeo-Christian cultures? We are a multicultural nation. Other people were here first. Other people, who don't share your culture, have since arrived.
For your much-needed education here's the first of those people:
Yes, it's OK and I bet anything if you walk around that court house you would find tons of things about Indians, even things to do with their religion.
I wonder if that will be the next target to have them torn down?
Yes, it's OK and I bet anything if you walk around that court house you would find tons of things about Indians, even things to do with their religion.
I wonder if that will be the next target to have them torn down?
The difference could be (not saying this makes the Commandments statue destruction right) that Indigenous Americans have not attempted - and many times succeeded - to force their beliefs on the public as a whole, which does take away civil liberties.
Again, not saying there can really be a legitimate "out" for people wanting to destroy property, BUT I have to think that had/has something to do with the fact that no, you probably won't see Native American references being torn down, at least today (that hasn't really happened since it was performed by the "good Christians" attempting to stamp out the devilish Native Americans, something that is, thank God, part of the past, or I hope it is).
Christianity traditionally has not sought to merely express itself, but to dominate and to insinuate itself into culture, education, morals, laws and so on...which is probably what makes it a hair touchier to many people than, say, Buddhism, Judaism, Wicca, etc., etc. Unfortunately, because of the actions and overall attitude of Christians throughout history, we can not overall trust that public Biblical icons and statues are placed there without an ulterior motive of domination/insinuation any more. We'd have to either be dumb as stumps or have VERY short memories (and no history education) in order for that trust to be put back in place.
Now if Christians had acted differently historically (and today), that fear wouldn't be in there. This would have just been an expression of someone's own beliefswithout any hidden agenda and that would most likely be that. Sadly, Christians have been the Children Who Cried Wolf...we no longer can believe such structures as the Ten Commandments in this news story could lack a control motive. And yes, that is sad.
So although there's really no reason that would make the destruction of religious representations fair (at least IMO), those going about this thread with figurative shocked and sorrowful faces and extreme hurt are kind of lampooning (and, I feel, kidding - whether overtly or subconsciously) themselves. I mean come on, people. Let's be real about overall "innocence" here. Nobody came along a quite park and kicked a Bible out of some little kid's hands here. A big ol' honkin "Lookie here - we are STILL 'THE' religion" statue was put up. People who have been under the yoke of that religion in virtually every aspect of their lives for perhaps decades freaked out. The one person who did ultimately not only freak out but did the actual destruction? Someone who does believe in the Judeo-Christian construct, not someone rallying against it (the devil literally made him do it, according to his story). As far as shocked hurt and a call for injustice, you've got nothin'. I am sorry.
We have so many Christians symbols in our country because the majority has been historically Christian. In places where Indians were the majority we have lots of Indian symbols. I don't know why people can't understand this. Do people think we would have tons of Muslim symbols when Muslims were such a small number until recently? Do people think Christianity symbols should be the main thing in Muslim countries?
They are having a big to do at the Oklahoma state house for the fact Satanists want to erect a statue of Satan there. It's been hotly debated for quite awhile now. Satanists say the Ten Commandants are there so they want a statue of Satan there as well. It's all in the courts.
I guess this guy got off his bi-polar meds and decided to do this.
Was anybody going to mention that both the ACLU and the Satanic Temple condemned the destruction of the Ten Commandments? It seems only fair to include "the rest of the story."
That's not really saying much. All religions are a part of American culture. Surely this shouldn't have been destroyed as it was a piece of art (which is also constitutionally protected).
They are having a big to do at the Oklahoma state house for the fact Satanists want to erect a statue of Satan there. It's been hotly debated for quite awhile now. Satanists say the Ten Commandants are there so they want a statue of Satan there as well. It's all in the courts.
Wow, they're wasting taxpayer dollars on this crap? Just let them put up their statue. Who cares?
We have so many Christians symbols in our country because the majority has been historically Christian. In places where Indians were the majority we have lots of Indian symbols. I don't know why people can't understand this. Do people think we would have tons of Muslim symbols when Muslims were such a small number until recently? Do people think Christianity symbols should be the main thing in Muslim countries?
No, it is the reverse, actually. The majority of this nation has been historically Christian BECAUSE OF an agenda-driven Christian push. That's ironic because contrary to the urban legend, the U.S. was not "founded on" Christianity. The majority of European immigrants to the New World were some denomination of Christian or other, yes, that is perfectly true. However, even they were frequently escaping Europe in order to escape persecution of one Christian sect over another Christian sect. (Note that this was not THE ONLY reason and I'm not saying it was. People were escaping other things - their station in life, a lack of a job, the politics of their country of exit, in some cases, even prison.)
These first immigrants' frame of reference was Christian (of various denominations), being, mostly, from various European countries which were majority Christian, but even they were aware - often painfully so - of the control measures of Christianity. The original (perhaps overly-optimistic) push was toward independence and freedom, including FREEDOM OF WORSHIP. Things obviously didn't work out that neatly (or naively), of course, but freedom was the main original attraction of the "new world."
But naturally, through sheer numbers alone, a Christian agenda was among the very first things to be set up, contradicting the assertion that they had originally been "escaping" religious demands, ridiculous dogma and the pushing of both on the next person - ironic...and not necessarily anything to celebrate as far as our origins go.
Some of the biggest names among our forefathers - the very founders of our nation - were not Christian, actually, or if they were, they often were very AGAINST flooding their new nation with religion of any one type, Christianity included.
Quote:
“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”
- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia (1789)
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.”
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr (1787)
"In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practiced, and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind.”
- Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists (1771)
“Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law. Take away the law-establishment, and every religion re-assumes its original benignity.”
- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man (1791)
“Congress has no power to make any religious establishments.”
- Roger Sherman, Congress (1789)
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack (1758)
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people build a wall of separation between Church & State."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Danbury Baptists (1802)
"To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."
- Thomas Paine, The American Crisis No. V (1776)
Note: You can read Paine's whole pamphlet, where he expresses his atheistic beliefs, here.
“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.”
- Thomas Jefferson, A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom (1779)
"Christian establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."
- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr. (1774)
"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
- George Washington, address to Congress (1790)
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- James Madison, General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia (1785)
Unfortunately, majority ruled in this matter over reason, and again, superstition created (and continues to create) havoc, attempting to insert or re-insert its fingers into every matter, including secular; and in that case, here, we're talking about Christianity specifically. Historically in the U.S., people who did not believe in the Bible were not exactly forthcoming with this information, hence the storm of Christianity continued, but that doesn't mean it's all as innocuous as "well, mostly people have been Christian, so that's why there are so many Christian symbols around." Remember that newcomers to the New World were fresh from Europe where torture and murder of heretics was still a fairly popular (and accepted) fact of life. It's likely that a large number of people "obeyed" out of fear (actually, history shows us this, no supposition necessary) and taught their children to do so as well. Social strictures, blacklisting people from professions and from communities themselves, and so on allowed the "good old Christian tradition" to continue...again, making "well, people are mostly Christian, we're bound to have lots of Christian statues around" and the like way, way less innocuous and practical than it seems on the surface.
Today, we in the U.S. don't literally fear that we will have fire-heated iron pokers inserted into various parts of our bodies or our joints dislocated or our families murdered or being burned alive or being ousted, penniless, from our communities to starve for not being Christian - and the "right kind" of Christian at that (which vacillated wildly in any given place at any given time on a seeming whim of the aristocracy and the current reigning religious power), so I'm not trying to be extremist as to why people would object to Christian symbols in today's context, but if what you're going on is "majority rules," I assert that it's really not that simple...and nowhere NEAR that innocent. Christianity has been a religion of fear - fear of hell, fear of God, and on the part of non-believers, fears for their lives, their professions, their families and so on. On a personal level I doubt people overall object to Christianity. On a public, in-your-face level, of course it's a big more triggering.
So yeah, seeing Christianity continue to be placed (loudly, in-your-face and front-and-center) by symbols as well as by constant movements to "bring back" "Christian values" in schools, government, and so on is likely to produce more of a trigger than, say, symbols of another religion.
All this being moot, ultimately, if you want to be practical about it, since the person who smashed the Commandments monument was doing so out of Christian belief (not in objection to or defiance of it), cementing the "truth" of Christian belief by inserting the Christian view of "the devil" (an actual, sole entity with an specific agenda against God) into his reasoning for his actions.
"Do people think Christianity symbols should be the main thing in Muslim countries?" Of course they do, and always have. Christians do seem to overall believe that EVERYONE should be Christian...or else be "denying" Christ and assuring their own damnation. And Christians are frequently called upon to "witness" in order to convert and bring about new followers. Yes, "people" (in your words) do think Christianity itself should be the "main thing" anywhere one might go. If you have any other questions, please let me know.
Last edited by JerZ; 10-27-2014 at 11:49 PM..
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