Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
But, it does not say that it was Satan in the form of a snake...It says that:
1Now the serpent was cunning, more than all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made, and it said to the woman, "Did God indeed say, 'You shall not eat of any of the trees of the garden?'"
That is all it says...It says nothing about Satan in the form of a snake or possessing the snake...It says that it was one of the beasts of the field that G-d had made...Period...
Uh and a donkey spoke too and ... an angel was involved. No scripture stands alone and God expects us to use them to come to a correct understanding. The account was there to address the beginning issue and ... look to future explanations and fulfillment as it also says:
.Genesis 3:15 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Ohh my the snake had a seed/child and it bit someone in the heel and a child of the woman bruised the snakes head. Wow when according to scripture did that occur or will occur? Context, context, context.
I suspect Rashi was a bit rash in his opinion.
Oh, I read a bit of Hebrew (Better in Koine Greek) but also have a friend who is a professor in a CA College who is teaching both modern and Biblical Hebrew and another who is a retired professor and an expert in 7 Semitic languages including Biblical Hebrew. I also have the works of Gesenius, the BDB Hebrew lexicon and more. I check and look for consistency in explanations and application throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. That helps avoid theological bias or personal opinion.
Rashi is a very good source, BUT was still human and could make mistakes. As an example, are you a corporealist and believe God has a physical body and hand as Rashi did?
Actually it is a perfect not a past perfect. In fact a Qal perfect.
Ok...So you know better than the Hebrew scholars?....It is past-perfect, that is what the Hebrew scholars say...
וְהָאָדָם יָדַע אֶת חַוָּה
וַיֵּדַע קַיִן אֶת אִשְׁתּוֹ
Notice the difference in the above Hebrew...The first says that "And the man had known his wife, Eve...The second says, "And Cain knew his wife"...
Quote:
Thus the translation is he "knew", indicating in the past from the point in time when the event was being written about. It has nothing to do with the event happening before the expulsion.
1Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, and she said, "I have acquired a man with the Lord."
Rashi's Commentary:
Now the man knew: [This took place], prior to the above episode, before he sinned and was banished from the Garden of Eden. Also the conception and the birth [took place before], for if it were written: וַיֵּדַע אָדָם it would mean that after he had been banished, he had sons. — [from Sanh. 38b]
Cain: Heb. קַיִן, based on קָנִיתִי, I acquired.
with the Lord: Heb. אֶת יהוה, like עִם יהוה, with the Lord. When He created me and my husband, He alone created us, but with this one, we are partners with Him. — [from Gen. Rabbah 22:2, Mid. Tadshei, Niddah 31a]
Cain… his brother Abel: Heb. אֶת קַיִן אֶת אָחִיו אֶת הָבֶל. The word אֶת is repeated three times to suggest additional things. This teaches that a twin sister was born with Cain, and with Abel were born two. Therefore, it is said: וַתֹּסֶף, and she continued, or added. — [from Gen. Rabbah 22:2, 3]
Quote:
The past use has nothing to do with a particular period of time, except in the context of the full account.
Genesis 3:24 shows it happened AFTER the expulsion.
Oh, I had no idea that you were a Hebrew Scholar...
Quote:
Genesis 3:24 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Yea...The Hebrew doesn't say flaming sword either...It just says sword...
Ok...Let's go by JUST what it says...G-d drove ADAM out...Says nothing of Eve, so, she was allowed to remain in Gan Eden...
Quote:
Then the account speaks of the conception happening after the expulsion.
Not if you understand the Hebrew meaning HAD KNOWN her vs KNEW HER...
[/quote]
The same chapter speaks of Cain knowing his wife in the past.[/quote]
Yea, the simple past, not the past-perfect, which I have shown you above...
Quote:
KJV Genesis 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Ok...What's your point?...The Hebrew for "knew" here is not the same as the Hebrew "had known" in verse 1...
Quote:
It is a historical account and follows the other uses of the Qal perfect with the word Yada(Yaw-dah')
So, you are telling Rashi that he doesn't know Hebrew like you?...
.Genesis 3:15 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.' {S}
Quote:
I suspect Rashi was a bit rash in his opinion.
Rashi was a great Hebrew Scholar...
Quote:
Oh, I read a bit of Hebrew (Better in Koine Greek) but also have a friend who is a professor in a CA College who is teaching both modern and Biblical Hebrew and another who is a retired professor and an expert in 7 Semitic languages including Biblical Hebrew. I also have the works of Gesenius, the BDB Hebrew lexicon and more. I check and look for consistency in explanations and application throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. That helps avoid theological bias or personal opinion.
My specialties are in linguistics and religion...
So, you know all these people and bring them up why?...Unless you have contacted each and every one of them for the linguistic information pertaining to our discussion here, like, in the past few hours, then it does not mean anything...
Quote:
Rashi is a very good source, BUT was still human and could make mistakes. As an example, are you a corporealist and believe God has a physical body and hand as Rashi did?
Well, so are your buddies, they're human as well and prone to mistakes...
Show me where Rashi believed this...
Additionally Rashi was according to different scholars a corporealist, this could indeed be argued when one reads Rashi´s commentaries on a sentence in the old testament: "And Pharaoh shall not listen to you, and I shall give My hand upon Egypt, and I shall take out my host, my people, the Children of Israel,from the land of Egypt, with great judgments". (Exodus 7:4)
Rashi comments (on the Pentateuch): "My hand"—An actual hand (yad mamash), with which to smite them. This is brought as one of several evidential cases to which one can conclude that Rashi was a corporealist. Alternatively, it could be understood to mean that an incorporeal Deity utilized a created physical hand, a la Green Lantern. The fact that the text does not say "Yado Mamash - His actual hand" is indicative that this reading is more likely. The issue has been debated for the past two decades (see Spring 2015 Dialogue).
Last edited by Richard1965; 06-24-2015 at 09:06 PM..
But, it does not say that it was Satan in the form of a snake...It says that:
1Now the serpent was cunning, more than all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made, and it said to the woman, "Did God indeed say, 'You shall not eat of any of the trees of the garden?'"
That is all it says...It says nothing about Satan in the form of a snake or possessing the snake...It says that it was one of the beasts of the field that G-d had made...Period...
[quote=Richard1965;40153879]Ok...So you know better than the Hebrew scholars?....It is past-perfect, that is what the Hebrew scholars say...
וְהָאָדָם יָדַע אֶת חַוָּה
וַיֵּדַע קַיִן אֶת אִשְׁתּוֹ
Notice the difference in the above Hebrew...The first says that "And the man had known his wife, Eve...The second says, "And Cain knew his wife"...
1Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, and she said, "I have acquired a man with the Lord."
Rashi's Commentary:
Now the man knew: [This took place], prior to the above episode, before he sinned and was banished from the Garden of Eden. Also the conception and the birth [took place before], for if it were written: וַיֵּדַע אָדָם it would mean that after he had been banished, he had sons. — [from Sanh. 38b]
Cain: Heb. קַיִן, based on קָנִיתִי, I acquired.
with the Lord: Heb. אֶת יהוה, like עִם יהוה, with the Lord. When He created me and my husband, He alone created us, but with this one, we are partners with Him. — [from Gen. Rabbah 22:2, Mid. Tadshei, Niddah 31a]
Cain… his brother Abel: Heb. אֶת קַיִן אֶת אָחִיו אֶת הָבֶל. The word אֶת is repeated three times to suggest additional things. This teaches that a twin sister was born with Cain, and with Abel were born two. Therefore, it is said: וַתֹּסֶף, and she continued, or added. — [from Gen. Rabbah 22:2, 3]
You are the one that is putting things there that are not there...So, who is the ignorant one?...You are the one that can't have a civil discussion because you have nothing...You run on emotion and not logic and reason...The fact that the TaNaKh is a Hebrew book with eastern thinking in it and not western thinking seems to escape your brilliant mind...
Ok...So you know better than the Hebrew scholars?....It is past-perfect, that is what the Hebrew scholars say...
וְהָאָדָם יָדַע אֶת חַוָּה
וַיֵּדַע קַיִן אֶת אִשְׁתּוֹ
Notice the difference in the above Hebrew...The first says that "And the man had known his wife, Eve...The second says, "And Cain knew his wife"...
1Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, and she said, "I have acquired a man with the Lord."
Rashi's Commentary:
Now the man knew: [This took place], prior to the above episode, before he sinned and was banished from the Garden of Eden. Also the conception and the birth [took place before], for if it were written: וַיֵּדַע אָדָם it would mean that after he had been banished, he had sons. — [from Sanh. 38b]
Cain: Heb. קַיִן, based on קָנִיתִי, I acquired.
with the Lord: Heb. אֶת יהוה, like עִם יהוה, with the Lord. When He created me and my husband, He alone created us, but with this one, we are partners with Him. — [from Gen. Rabbah 22:2, Mid. Tadshei, Niddah 31a]
Cain… his brother Abel: Heb. אֶת קַיִן אֶת אָחִיו אֶת הָבֶל. The word אֶת is repeated three times to suggest additional things. This teaches that a twin sister was born with Cain, and with Abel were born two. Therefore, it is said: וַתֹּסֶף, and she continued, or added. — [from Gen. Rabbah 22:2, 3]
Can i ask why it even matters where this occurred???
I am just looking at the printed text and seeing what I am seeing...I believe that if one doesn't understand the beginning correctly then there's a snowball effect...I hear many people say that if Adam and Eve hadn't screwed up that we be still living in paradise, and living a immortals, however, even a cursory view indicates that they were created mortal...And everyone seems to think that they were put out of the garden as a result of the TOK, however, they were put out because of the TOL, it states the reason that they were put out right there in Genesis 2...But yet people will still believe that it was because of the TOK..I believe if you understand one section incorrectly, then you will understand the next incorrectly, because one builds on the other, so to speak...That's pretty much my agenda...Discussion...But, some people want to be immature...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Eve conceived Cain and Abel in Gan Eden...
