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I`ll say this again about some guy on a remote jungle picking up a bible(where did he learn to read?) and not believing in God`s restoration of his creation....it depend on what translation he picks up. THAT makes ALL the difference. If he picks up the church`s kjv..then he probably will believe as the church does. See,that is the problem. We see the word eternity and everlasting hell etc in the bible and we believe it. We don`t do a word search to find what that word actually means in the greek. We just accept the translation. Now I know, no one said anyone is lazy or doesn`t do research BUT.... if you don`t do any research from the english translation you will believe whatever is in there. Most people believe in eternal torment because that is what is in most english translated bibles. A serious student will check different resources and find out what words mean if they have been translated into another language. For instances,,and this is huge, The word aion is translated many many different ways in most bibles as I have pointed out before. How can you trust a translation that translates the same word different ways? Sometimes it`s translated eternity,world,universe,age,centuries etc etc. I mean,it`s unbelievable! But people don`t care..they just accept it,whatever. To me folks, this is God`s Word! Isn`t it worth the time and effort to try and understand it? But for most people..No. whatever translation I have is fine and whatever the church tells me must be correct. WE are blessed to be in this country. For God to have given us all the resources we have to understand his word and not use them is a travesty. This is God`s word to us. Not just some fiction novel. So the example of someone remotely picking up a bible somewhere in beleiveing in God`s restoration is weak. It would be like me saying they could pick up a mormon bible and not believe as mormons do. It DEPENDS ON WHICH BIBLE THEY PICK UP.
I agree. Obviously, the universalism/anti-universalism dance continues here unabated.... I have stated this over and over, but here goes once more- if you just pick up a Bible and read it you would NEVER get the sense that universalism is true. You would never get the idea of some type of second chance beyond the grave. To view it differently requires manipulation of scripture apart from reading it as a whole, in context
Kay Kay, the thing is many Christians have done and continue to do just that. They do get the sense the universalism in true and this being many in the early church. Translations are a big issue as Dave has shared You may see the belief as a kind of manipulation, but many Christians do not. This is only your opinion, KayKay, respectfully God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-30-2008 at 03:55 PM..
i am wondering if people mocked the koran publically would this be tolerated?
to some, wisdom of the scriptures is utter foolishness?
some also jeer and mock the teaching of mathmatics as "goobledygook"?
god is laughing in the aisles no?
Bunky, people are not mocking the Bible. Check out the interpretations Many Christians do not believe that what is presented in eternal hell theology is wisdom or correct, or truth. Many Christians , well learned and well versed in the scriptures, considered to be Bible scholars, lovers of God's word believe that the eventual restoration of all is presented in the scriptures, the Bible. Can you see the difference? God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-30-2008 at 04:03 PM..
Kay Kay, the thing is many Christians have done and continue to do just that. They do get the sense the universalism in true and this being many in the early church. Translations are a big issue as Dave has shared You may see the belief as a kind of manipulation, but many Christians do not. This is only your opinion, KayKay, respectfully God bless.
Well, of course, it's MY opinion! That's what forum life is all about,no? I just do not believe that even changing translations of certain words would change the contextual meaning of what Jesus, St. Paul and other writers of the new testament said about salvation. It's my opinion that universalism is trying to cram a square peg in a round hole!
If anyone has a question about it, I would suggest they just pick up a Bible and read it and see what conclusion they draw from the context of the entire New Testament.
I agree. Obviously, the universalism/anti-universalism dance continues here unabated.... I have stated this over and over, but here goes once more- if you just pick up a Bible and read it you would NEVER get the sense that universalism is true. You would never get the idea of some type of second chance beyond the grave. To view it differently requires manipulation of scripture apart from reading it as a whole, in context
Quote:
Well, of course, it's MY opinion! That's what forum life is all about,no? I just do not believe that even changing translations of certain words would change the contextual meaning of what Jesus, St. Paul and other writers of the new testament said about salvation. It's my opinion that universalism is trying to cram a square peg in a round hole!
Thanks for clarifying this KayKay It isn't about changing the translations of certain words but it is about looking at the meanings and usages in the original languages, and looking at the scriptures as a whole. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-30-2008 at 04:19 PM..
It helped me to have an open mind to realize that all those who believed in salvation by works prior to the Reformation were honest believers who were thoroughly convinced that what they believed was the truth.
Acts 3 says that Jesus must be held in Heaven until the restoration of all things and there would come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord to accomplish this purpose.
The Reformation continues and the Church is continuing to come out of the beliefs and superstitions of the Dark Ages and UR is just the next step. I am naturally more of a Martin Luther than a Grand Inquisitor of the RCC, I guess. I like change that further reveals my Father as Love who has no respect of persons.
But the final segment of the flood is not the few that were saved in that day!
1 Peter 3:18-20
Questions:
1. Why did the risen Christ preach to the disobedient dead?
2. Who were these disobedient spirits?
3. What was the outcome of the ministry of Jesus Christ to the disobedient dead?
4. What did many of the earliest church fathers believe transpired when Jesus Christ ministered to these men of disobedience from the days of Noah?
5. What does the koine Greek zao mean?
"Millions of hells of sinners cannot come near to exhaust infinite grace." -Samuel Rutherford-
IN answering your questions I believe the Catholic Church has taught that perhaps those spirits were in Purgatory and they couldn't get into Heaven because Christ hadn't completed His work. Once Christ rose to Heaven, spirits waiting could then go in. So I don't know if I would call the dead "disobedient."
I`ll say this again about some guy on a remote jungle picking up a bible(where did he learn to read?) and not believing in God`s restoration of his creation....it depend on what translation he picks up. THAT makes ALL the difference. If he picks up the church`s kjv..then he probably will believe as the church does. See,that is the problem. We see the word eternity and everlasting hell etc in the bible and we believe it. We don`t do a word search to find what that word actually means in the greek. We just accept the translation. Now I know, no one said anyone is lazy or doesn`t do research BUT.... if you don`t do any research from the english translation you will believe whatever is in there. Most people believe in eternal torment because that is what is in most english translated bibles. A serious student will check different resources and find out what words mean if they have been translated into another language. For instances,,and this is huge, The word aion is translated many many different ways in most bibles as I have pointed out before. How can you trust a translation that translates the same word different ways? Sometimes it`s translated eternity,world,universe,age,centuries etc etc. I mean,it`s unbelievable! But people don`t care..they just accept it,whatever. To me folks, this is God`s Word! Isn`t it worth the time and effort to try and understand it? But for most people..No. whatever translation I have is fine and whatever the church tells me must be correct. WE are blessed to be in this country. For God to have given us all the resources we have to understand his word and not use them is a travesty. This is God`s word to us. Not just some fiction novel. So the example of someone remotely picking up a bible somewhere in beleiveing in God`s restoration is weak. It would be like me saying they could pick up a mormon bible and not believe as mormons do. It DEPENDS ON WHICH BIBLE THEY PICK UP.
Yea, because the Christians that were reading the Latin Vulgate would certainly get a more pure translation from the original language used than someone reading the KJV (which came much later.)
IN answering your questions I believe the Catholic Church has taught that perhaps those spirits were in Purgatory and they couldn't get into Heaven because Christ hadn't completed His work. Once Christ rose to Heaven, spirits waiting could then go in. So I don't know if I would call the dead "disobedient."
You might not call them "disobedient"....the Apostle St. Peter does!
Quote:
Christ once for all died for sins, the innocent One for the guilty many, that He might bring us near to God, being put to death in physical form, but His spirit entering upon new Life. By which He also went and preached to imprisoned spirits which sometimes were disobedient and refused obedience long ago when the longsuffering of God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the construction of the ark, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved through passing through the waves.
Here is what I was taught to be "the gospel" during my evangelical upbringing - Bible college included:
God is Love... but more than that... He is Holy. And holiness is a quality in Him that, in a way, is opposite to love. This means (in a very real sense somehow) that He is also eternally vindictive and unforgiving toward those who are less than holy. So one day you will be conformed to His likeness, and you shall be holy just as He is, and not very loving toward imperfect people. BUT? you must be loving NOW, even if that means you are being less than holy, or you won't make it to heaven. On the other hand, without holiness NO ONE shall see the Lord! (Yes, it's a... er... paradox, but just accept it in childlike faith, and stop intellectualizing so much!)
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I wondered what your bent and intent really was. I don't know how to explain it - you just "smelled" funny. (Sheep are not supposed to smell like wolves. ) Glad to see you out of the closet though.
Isa 40:13 Who has understood the mind of the Lord, or instructed him as his counselor?
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I have stated this over and over, but here goes once more- if you just pick up a Bible and read it you would NEVER get the sense that universalism is true. You would never get the idea of some type of second chance beyond the grave. To view it differently requires manipulation of scripture apart from reading it as a whole, in context
I just do not believe that even changing translations of certain words would change the contextual meaning of what Jesus, St. Paul and other writers of the new testament said about salvation. It's my opinion 
