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But born "again" implies a non-continuation of the original birth. We have all been born but we cannot be born AGAIN, until this life is over. We can only be "born of God" (gennao= conceived, begotten) as embryo Spirits. This life is our spiritual "womb" existence.
Where are these extraordinary people? There is no evidence, except in the vivid imagination of believers in the Holy Spirit. It seems to be humans desire to godlike, to be extraordinary, or to be like the son of God. It is amazing what a hyperactive imagination can do. Based on what I know, there is no son of God, no Holy Spirit, and no extraordinary Holy powers for humans. There is God and twelve angels in heaven, the rest is human invention. We all have one thing in common, we live, we strive to fulfill our destinies, and we die. There is no miraculous Holy intervention. Since humans murdered Jesus (God) God has assumed a policy of nonintervention. Why would God repeat the same mistake and become involved in human affairs? Humans would do it again, they would murder God.
But born "again" implies a non-continuation of the original birth. We have all been born but we cannot be born AGAIN, until this life is over. We can only be "born of God" (gennao= conceived, begotten) as embryo Spirits. This life is our spiritual "womb" existence.
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Originally Posted by Freak80
Embryo spirits, huh?
Sounds like something from Scientology.
You know Freak, your confidence that YOU are actually the physical elements that make up your body and NOT the energy that you produce in your brain may be typical for atheists, but have you actually given it much real thought? How can what has been transformed into the essence that is YOU go back to being mere cells of your body? What kind of transformation can do that?
Last edited by MysticPhD; 09-01-2015 at 12:42 AM..
I am aware of the Scriptural references to death as sleep. It is a metaphor.
I don't doubt that the term "sleep" is a metaphor for those that are dead. I don't believe that any of us really believe that a corpse is actually sleeping. "Sleep" is obviously a figurative term. However, it IS a term that is used to illustrate to we mere mortals that one is lying in a 'sleep-like' state in the grave and will 'awaken' to life at Christ's coming. But, not UNTIL then!
People sleep. People awake from sleep. We mere mortals understand this and can relate to this ...hence the illustration.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
The dead body has the appearance of one who is asleep.
Of course. The dead person is now devoid of the life-breath that initially resulted in his/her becoming a living being. Ever seen a newly born infant slapped by the doctor to get it to breath? The breath of the deceased has now returned to God who gave it in the first place. As to what God does with that breath ...who knows? Perhaps he bottles and corks it for future use.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
No matter how many times it is shown, the fact that Revelation shows the souls of believers in heaven is simply ignored, or an attempt is made to explain it away.
The book of Revelation is full of visions and prophesies and has to be understood within context. One cannot make a case for 'heaven at death' from that particular text.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
You also ignore Matthew 10:28.
Well, I don't believe that that passage of scripture has anything to do with the topic of 'heaven at death' at all. Not to mention, of course, that one can hardly be in the presence of Jesus immediately at death if Jesus is currently preaching those scriptures to His congregation!
See how easy it is to shoot one's self in the foot?
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Originally Posted by Mike555
As for 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 it actually states the opposite of what you think it to mean. Those who are asleep refers to those who are dead, their bodies are in the grave,
So far so good.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
but their souls - the real person is in heaven.
No, no. The 'soul' IS (or WAS in this case) the actual 'human being' who was alive but is now dead. The 'breath' or 'pneuma' or the life-force of the soul or human identity has now departed the dead person. As to whether it's in heaven or not I have no idea. We're just told that 'the breath' goes back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). There is NO Bible text that states "the righteous dead are now in heaven." One has to misinterpret scripture to arrive at this conclusion.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
When Jesus returns at the pre-tribulational rapture He will bring them with Him from heaven.
How can He? They have not yet been resurrected. The dead are still 'sleeping', i.e. giving the illusion of sleep, in their graves. Jesus is coming to RESURRECT the righteous ones FROM their graves where they presently 'reside'.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
You left out verse 14.
1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
Well, doesn't that scripture sound rather odd? "God will bring with Him" ...? Is it God who is coming or is it Jesus? Does it also not seem rather oddly stated that "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus will be brought with God" ...? Does it not seem odder still that those who are asleep in Jesus and brought by God are about to be reunited with themselves ... they who are presently 'asleep' in their graves? Are you comfortable with an oddly constructed text from the pen of Paul that appears to contradict what every other scripture says about the state of the dead? If it contradicts the rest of scripture then your interpretation of that text has to be skewed.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
At the rapture and resurrection of the church Jesus will bring with Him from heaven the souls of all church-age believers who have died physically. Their souls will then be reunited with their resurrected bodies. Resurrection always refers to the body being raised. The soul is reunited with that resurrected body.
One more time. At creation God breathed into Adam's nostrils and Adam became a LIVING SOUL. In other words Adam became a human being. The soul IS the human being! The breath of God, however, is the life-force, i.e. the magic ingredient that activates the human being INTO becoming a living soul! The body=soul. The breath=life. Its this life force and NOT the physical body (obviously) that returns to God at death.
Last edited by RomulusXXV; 09-01-2015 at 02:50 AM..
Interesting observation. Where else could we be? Only could God can create an afterlife. If we don't go to heaven, where do we go? It is unreasonable to believe God would put us "somewhere else." Either you are an obedient servant of God, or you cease to exist.
Hey, Earl,
The Bible talks about God being in Heaven. It also talks about "the heavens". I think that we will be in the vicinity of heaven and God, but I don't think we will die and go to heaven - the apex of the heavens, the highest point and the home of God. I think God will always be above us. I see the heavens as being much like a pyramid. God sits at the top and the rest of us are below him. This doesn't mean that God won't come and go.
In my reading, I have not found anything that said that we are going to heaven. If I have overlooked it, please let me know. I believe there is a heaven where God lives and I believe there are the heavens where we will make our home.
When Jesus was being crucified, and the thief asked Jesus to remember him, Jesus said, "You will be with me in paradise". Another time Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you". And, "in my father's house there are many mansions." Over and over there are references to the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven and so many other references to the afterlife. But Jesus doesn't say, "I'll see you in heaven" or "We will be together in Heaven". It has always seemed odd to me that the Bible and especially Jesus did not link mankind to heaven. There has to be a reason.
The Bible also says things like, "No man shall enter heaven - except he comes from heaven". I'm paraphrasing here because I don't have the exact verse. But that phrase and others like it, indicate that only God and Jesus (and whoever God took with him originally) will be in heaven and the rest of us will be elsewhere.
[color="Navy"]One more time. At creation God breathed into Adam's nostrils and Adam became a LIVING SOUL. In other words Adam became a human being. The soul IS the human being! The breath of God, however, is the life-force, i.e. the magic ingredient that activates the human being INTO becoming a living soul! The body=soul. The breath=life. Its this life force and NOT the physical body (obviously) that returns to God at death.
Just clarifying... two different bodies.
The body we have on earth will return to the ground.
There will be a different body provided after the resurrection. It will be like the body Christ had after His resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15:35-44
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
I don't doubt that the term "sleep" is a metaphor for those that are dead. I don't believe that any of us really believe that a corpse is actually sleeping. "Sleep" is obviously a figurative term. However, it IS a term that is used to illustrate to we mere mortals that one is lying in a 'sleep-like' state in the grave and will 'awaken' to life at Christ's coming. But, not UNTIL then!
People sleep. People awake from sleep. We mere mortals understand this and can relate to this ...hence the illustration.
Of course. The dead person is now devoid of the life-breath that initially resulted in his/her becoming a living being. Ever seen a newly born infant slapped by the doctor to get it to breath? The breath of the deceased has now returned to God who gave it in the first place. As to what God does with that breath ...who knows? Perhaps he bottles and corks it for future use.
The book of Revelation is full of visions and prophesies and has to be understood within context. One cannot make a case for 'heaven at death' from that particular text.
Yes. Revelation is full of visions which need to be understood within context. It also includes literal language which is to be understood literally. The language involved in Revelation 6:9-11 is literal and is to be understood as such. I will post the following commentaries once again from the Bible Knowledge Commentary and the Expositors Bible Commentary. This was posted in post #59.
6:9. With the opening of the fifth seal John had another revelation of heaven itself and his attention was directed to souls pictured as under the altar and identified as those who had been slain because of the Word of God and the testimony they had maintained. (For ''under the altar,'' see Ex. 29:12; Lev. 4:7.) These are obviously martyrs, mentioned in more detail in Revelation 7. This makes it clear that souls will be saved in the Great Tribulation, but many of them will be martyred. 6:10-11. They will cry out to the Lord, asking how long it will be before He will avenge them. In reply each is given a white robe and informed that the Tribulation is not over and that others must be martyred before God's judgment on the wicked and deliverance of the righteous occurs at the Second Coming. This passage shows that the time period is the Great Tribulation, but not its end.
Spirits without any substance could not wear robes. The fact that they will be given robes supports the concept that when believers die they are given temporary bodies in heaven which are later replaced by resurrection bodies at the time of resurrection (cf. 20:4).
[The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p.948]
Then there is the following. Also concerning Revelation 6:9-11.
John says that he saw the ''souls'' (psychas) of those slain (v.9). This is generally understood to mean the disembodied souls of these saints. However, the Greek word Psychē has various meanings and probably stands here for the actual ''lives'' or ''persons'' who were killed rather than for their ''souls.'' They are seen by John as persons who are very much alive though they have been killed by the beast. ''Under the altar'' sets the scene as occurring in the temple of heaven.
[The Expositors Bible Commentary, Vol. 12, p. 475.]
When John describes seeing Jesus in heaven in his first vision (Revelation 1:13-20) he literally saw Jesus in heaven. John used descriptive language in describing the appearance of Jesus, but his account of seeing Jesus in heaven is to be understood literally. And so it is with John's account in Revelation 6:9-11. John in his vision is describing Tribulational martyrs who are literally in heaven.
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Well, I don't believe that that passage of scripture has anything to do with the topic of 'heaven at death' at all. See how easy it is to shoot one's self in the foot?
The reason I mentioned Matthew 10:28 is to show that the soul survives the death of the body.
Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna.
Jesus stated that the soul continues on when the body dies. The soul which is distinct from the body and is the immaterial part of man therefore has to go somewhere once it has separated from the body.
The following scripture which I think I have already posted shows the three distinct parts of man.
1 Thess. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
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Not to mention, of course, that one can hardly be in the presence of Jesus immediately at death if Jesus is currently preaching those scriptures to His congregation!
Prior to Jesus going to the cross, believers who died went to Paradise which at that time was located in one of the sections of Hades. Jesus told the criminal on the cross that he would be with Him that day in Paradise (Luke 23:43). And yes, I am aware that some people try to stick a comma between the word 'today' and the rest of the sentence so that they can claim that Jesus wasn't saying that the criminal was going to be with Him immediately, but no.
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No, no. The 'soul' IS (or WAS in this case) the actual 'human being' who was alive but is now dead. The 'breath' or 'pneuma' or the life-force of the soul or human identity has now departed the dead person. As to whether it's in heaven or not I have no idea. We're just told that 'the breath' goes back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). There is NO Bible text that states "the righteous dead are now in heaven." One has to misinterpret scripture to arrive at this conclusion.
As has been shown, Revelation 6:9-11 is to be literally understood as showing the righteous dead in heaven. In the case of that passage, Tribulational martyrs are in view. As has also already been stated, Paul's statement in 2 Cor. 5:8 shows that the righteous dead are at home with the Lord when they depart from their bodies at the point of physical death.
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How can He? They have not yet been resurrected. The dead are still 'sleeping', i.e. giving the illusion of sleep, in their graves. Jesus is coming to RESURRECT the righteous ones FROM their graves where they presently 'reside'.
As was already explained, it is the souls of church-age believers which are in heaven which Jesus brings with Him when He returns, to be reunited with their resurrected body. Resurrection refers to the body being raised. Not to the soul being 'reactivated' or awakened from some kind of soul slumber. The resurrection of the church takes place at the rapture of the church. When the rapture of the church occurs, the dead who are in Christ (and in heaven) will return with Him to the clouds and be reunited with their bodies. Believers who are physically alive at the rapture will be caught up in the air and their bodies will be changed into an immortal and incorruptible form. Then they will all go into heaven until after the seven year Tribulation is over.
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[color="navy"]Well, doesn't that scripture sound rather odd? "God will bring with Him" ...? Is it God who is coming or is it Jesus? Does it also not seem rather oddly stated that "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus will be brought with God" ...? Does it not seem odder still that those who are asleep in Jesus and brought by God are about to be reunited with themselves ... they who are presently 'asleep' in their graves? Are you comfortable with an oddly constructed text from the pen of Paul that appears to contradict what every other scripture says about the state of the dead? If it contradicts the rest of scripture then your interpretation of that text has to be skewed.
Jesus is God. He is the Second 'Person' of the Trinity. But Paul's thought in 1 Thess. 4:14 is probably that God the Father will bring the souls from heaven along with Jesus.
Again, it is the soul of the believer which is in heaven and which will return with Jesus to be reunited with his body at the rapture and resurrection of the church.
There is no contradiction at all. You perceive a contradiction where none exists because you don't understand that at physical death the immaterial part of man - the soul and spirit of the believer separates from the body and goes into the presence of the Lord. And then at a future time the soul will be reunited with the body at the time of the resurrection.
As has been shown, there is more than just what Paul wrote which shows that the believer goes to heaven when he dies.
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One more time. At creation God breathed into Adam's nostrils and Adam became a LIVING SOUL. In other words Adam became a human being. The soul IS the human being! The breath of God, however, is the life-force, i.e. the magic ingredient that activates the human being INTO becoming a living soul! The body=soul. The breath=life. Its this life force and NOT the physical body (obviously) that returns to God at death.
This was covered earlier in this post. The word 'soul' can at times refer to the entire individual, and at other times refer to the immaterial part of man which is distinct from the physical body. Words have a range of meaning.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-01-2015 at 08:48 AM..
The body we have on earth will return to the ground.
There will be a different body provided after the resurrection. It will be like the body Christ had after His resurrection.
Well, assuming that ANY of this 'Bible stuff' is to be taken seriously I guess 'new and improved' bodies would be in order for the resurrected righteous ones. At the same time I would think that the resurrected would still be known and recognized by those who knew them previously.
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
1 Corinthians 15:35-44
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
You know Freak, your confidence that YOU are actually the physical elements that make up your body and NOT the energy that you produce in your brain may be typical for atheists, but have you actually given it much real thought? How can what has been transformed into the essence that is YOU go back to being mere cells of your body? What kind of transformation can do that?
Care to elaborate?
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