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Originally Posted by Mike555 The issue which I have addressed is simply that the angel that we know as Satan had originally been created morally good and upright, and only later made a volitional choice to rebel against God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
But, there is nothing in the Scriptures that allude to this...So where do you get it from?...
Satan was not created to be wicked. Nothing God creates is for a wicked purpose, that would be unjust and unrighteous it would also mean that Deuteronomy 32:4 is a lie. John 8:44 also says of Satan, "he did not stand fast in the truth". Meaning that at one time he was 'in the truth' but didn't stay in it.
Originally Posted by Mike555 The issue which I have addressed is simply that the angel that we know as Satan had originally been created morally good and upright, and only later made a volitional choice to rebel against God.
Satan was not created to be wicked. Nothing God creates is for a wicked purpose, that would be unjust and unrighteous it would also mean that Deuteronomy 32:4 is a lie. John 8:44 also says of Satan, "he did not stand fast in the truth". Meaning that at one time he was 'in the truth' but didn't stay in it.
Apparently then, Satan did not turn out at all the way that God expected or planned that he would. God got it wrong. That's a bit clumsy though for an omnipotent omniscient Being, wouldn't you agree?
If you had a child that became a mass murderer it might break your heart, but you would not bear responsibility. Because you are human and human children grow up to become free agents. You have no control of or foreknowledge of their actions. On the other hand, if you knew all along that your child was a mass murderer and yet you allowed him to do as he pleased, you WOULD bear responsibility for that, wouldn't you? God though is not a human parent. God is fully and perfectly omnipotent and omniscient. God created Satan with His own hands and being omnipotent got exactly precisely the result He intended to get. And being omniscient, knew exactly precisely what his creation was and would do. NO responsibility for the outcome? In truth Satan is simply the agent of God's Will, doing as God always knew and intended that he would. If Satan is NOT doing as God expected and intended that he would, then God failed to achieve the result He intended to achieve. Factor in all the free will you wish, but an omniscient God already knows all the outcomes. And an omnipotent God gets EXACTLY the outcomes He wishes to get WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
Deut.32
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Satan is God's perfect creation, doing EXACTLY as God always intended that he would do. Without exception. Just and right belong to God to determine.
And the issue we are addressing is that this opinion of yours is to be found NOWHERE in the OT. You have to insert it there all on your own.
The problem you are facing here, is that originally the Jews had no concept of an evil opponent to God. God is all powerful. How could He have an opponent? The concept you are espousing, one reflected in the NT, is derived from Persian Zoroastrianism. According to ancient Persian beliefs, the Wise Lord Ahura Mazda, in order to give humankind the freedom of choice, split His nature into two parts, the wise loving part of his nature, and the evil lie, which became associated with the figure of the evil liar Angra Mainyu, also known as Ahriman.
A history lesson is needed here. In 539 BC when Cyrus the Great of Persia, who was a follower of the Zoroastrian God Ahura Mazda, defeated Babylon and gave the Jewish people the option to return to their homeland, or to remain within the Persian empire. Many returned, and many stayed. Over the course of the next six centuries there was a steady emigration of those with Jewish background from Persia back to Jerusalem. They would become a distinctly separate group within Jewish culture because of the Persian influenced religious beliefs they held in common which their Jewish beliefs. They would be known as Pharisees, or Farsi (Parsi; Persians).
Persian Language
Wikipedia
"Persian is a pluricentric language and its grammar is similar to that of many contemporary European languages. Persian is also so called due to its origin from the capital of the Achaemenid empire, Persis (Fars or Pars) hence the name Persian (Farsi or Parsi). "
Persian language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Jewish God was jealous and vindictive. The Persian God Ahura Mazda was wise and loving. Ahura Mazda literally means "Lord Wise." The Mazda Motor company chose the word Mazda for it's company name precisely because the word means "wise."
Zoroaster (Zarathrustra) was born circa the mid to late second millennium BC, and his primary message was of monotheism. There is only only one God of all creation, whom he called the Wise Lord, Ahura Mazda.
The precise date of the founding of Zoroastrianism is uncertain. An approximate date of 1200-1500 BCE has been established through archaeological evidence and linguistic comparisons with the Hindu text, the Rig Veda. BBC - Religions - Zoroastrian: Zoroaster
Modern Christianity has, arguably, more in common with ancient Persian beliefs than it does with Jewish beliefs. The Persians believed that 1,000 years after Zoroaster a direct ancestor of his would be born, and this individual would be the Messiah. He would sit at the right hand of Ahura Mazda and would be be the judge of mankind during the Final Judgement. Sound familiar? This belief was well known and already extremely popular throughout the Mediterranean world in the 1st century AD.
"Although a definite borrowing is still impossible to prove, the resemblances between Zoroastrianism and Judaism are numerous and probably took shape during the exile. First of all the figure of Satan, originally a servant of God appointed by Him as His prosecutor, came more and more to resemble Ahriman, the enemy of God. Secondly,the figure of the Messiah, originally a future king of Israel who would save his people from oppression evolved,in Deutro-Isaiah for instance, into a universal Savior very similar to the Iranian Saoshant(Savior). Thirdly, the entities that came to surround Yahweh, such as His wisdom and His spirit are comparable to the arch angels escorting Ahura Mazda; other points of comparison include the doctrine of the millenia; the Last Judgement; the heavenly book in which human actions are inscribed; the resurrection, the final transformation of the Earth; paradise of Heaven on Earth or in Heaven. Christianity seems to owe many features to Iran over and above those inherited from Judaism. Among others are probably the belief in guardian angels, resurrection and the heavenly journey of the soul."(Encyclopedia Americana,"Zoroastrianism"pp.813-815).
Now, notice that Gospel Matthew tells of "wise men" coming from the east to worship the baby Jesus. The word the KJV has chosen to translate as "wise men" is actually the word Magi in Greek.
Wikipedia
Magi (/ˈmeɪdʒaɪ/; Latin plural of magus; Ancient Greek: μάγος magos; Kurdish:mager,Old Persian: maguš, Persian: مُغ mogh; English singular magian, mage, magus, magusian, magusaean; , Turkish: mecî) is a term, used since at least the 6th century BCE, to denote followers of Zoroastrianism or Zoroaster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi
The Magi were Zoroastrian priests, famous for their learning and abilities in astrology. They were believed to possess magical powers, hence out words magic and magicians. Gospel Matthew depicts these individuals coming from the east (Persia) to sanctify the birth of the long awaited messiah. The author of Gospel Matthew clearly adhered to Persian beliefs himself, and was declaring to other Jewish Persian believers that the messiah had been born, and that the Messiah was Jesus.
What you are doing is attempting to rework Jewish beliefs to reflect the Persian aspects of your beliefs which pervade all of Christianity. You can personally subscribe to whatever it pleases you to make up for yourself to believe in. But you cannot simply make things up, insert it into someone else's belief system, declare it to be true, and then expect other people to to quietly buy into it simply because you say so.
Ahhh...So Jesus was NOT the Jewish Messiah after all, he was the Zoroastrian Messiah...
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering: the sardius, topaz, diamond, turquoise, onyx, and beryl, the sapphire, ruby, and emerald, and gold; the works of thy tambourines, and of thy pipes were prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Along with this, and a creative mind or imagination.
You were anointed as a guardian cherub.
You were on the holy mount of God.
You walked among the fiery stones.
But that's talking about a human in a metaphoric manner...
I had already made my deal with the feds who several times acknowledged they knew I still possessed a lot of cash and had numerous connections south of the border long before I went away.
Consequently, when they asked me why I did not run my answer was simple because I did not want my Father to die alone, or be left to the mercy of my degenerate sister and her kids.............otherwise known as me honoring my parents as called for in the ten commandments that by this time were part of both my physical and spiritual makeup............ something you are still missing from being manifested within you
Because there was not even a request for a warrant for my arrest (let alone have a warrant) the reason why they were powerless to do anything about it let alone give me the length of time they wanted me serve was because in the eyes of the law my arrest was nothing more than a home invasion with a kidnapping.
Otherwise ,I would have done 30 plus years for the length of the time of the conspiracy (3 decades), the number of employees I had as well as their estimated amount of the tons of pot I smuggled over a 30 year career.,
LOL, they could not catch their own butts with hand full of treble hooks let alone me, and never did catch me with anything !!!
What they did get was my ******* attorney to give me up that included him taking a 6 digit gift from the lead prosecution witnesses's attorney. Some people suggest it was because I was sleeping with his wife but that is not true. On the other hand the truth is much darker including a lost government controlled delivery of a "significant amount of pot".
Consequently, and according to my legal advisors, because there is no statue of limitations on kidnapping with a home invasion they are still concerned over the possibility of me raising this issue and suing them and everybody else associated with my totally illegal arrest.
LOL, they deserve to worry, however, for the sake of things and the will of God while allowing them to feel that they have taken the pound of flesh from me that they wanted to have, I will continue to let things sit until God tells me to do otherwise (something to far over your head for you to even begin to understand).
As for you and everyone else here, my testimony has been online for years and my real name is not hidden from anyone
Fair enough?
And this is why people are despising Christianity more and more these days...Sad...
Apparently then, Satan did not turn out at all the way that God expected or planned that he would. God got it wrong. That's a bit clumsy though for an omnipotent omniscient Being, wouldn't you agree?
If you had a child that became a mass murderer it might break your heart, but you would not bear responsibility. Because you are human and human children grow up to become free agents. You have no control of or foreknowledge of their actions. On the other hand, if you knew all along that your child was a mass murderer and yet you allowed him to do as he pleased, you WOULD bear responsibility for that, wouldn't you? God though is not a human parent. God is fully and perfectly omnipotent and omniscient. God created Satan with His own hands and being omnipotent got exactly precisely the result He intended to get. And being omniscient, knew exactly precisely what his creation was and would do. NO responsibility for the outcome? In truth Satan is simply the agent of God's Will, doing as God always knew and intended that he would. If Satan is NOT doing as God expected and intended that he would, then God failed to achieve the result He intended to achieve. Factor in all the free will you wish, but an omniscient God already knows all the outcomes. And an omnipotent God gets EXACTLY the outcomes He wishes to get WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
Deut.32
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Satan is God's perfect creation, doing EXACTLY as God always intended that he would do. Without exception. Just and right belong to God to determine.
And this is why people are despising Christianity more and more these days...Sad...
See how ignorant you are
Christ is the only way a person may be reborn from what they were into the image and likeness of their creator that was God's plan for man and stated so clearly in Ge.1:26
Something the law that you cannot follow cannot do for you or anyone else
You serve a religion that is based on racism, and hate given witness by the apartheid practiced in modern day Israel.......... if anyone thinks different all they need to do is ask a black Ethiopian Jew if they are treated equally or discriminated against?.......... for christians and arabs living in Israel it gets even worse
Apparently then, Satan did not turn out at all the way that God expected or planned that he would. God got it wrong. That's a bit clumsy though for an omnipotent omniscient Being, wouldn't you agree?
If you had a child that became a mass murderer it might break your heart, but you would not bear responsibility. Because you are human and human children grow up to become free agents. You have no control of or foreknowledge of their actions. On the other hand, if you knew all along that your child was a mass murderer and yet you allowed him to do as he pleased, you WOULD bear responsibility for that, wouldn't you? God though is not a human parent. God is fully and perfectly omnipotent and omniscient. God created Satan with His own hands and being omnipotent got exactly precisely the result He intended to get. And being omniscient, knew exactly precisely what his creation was and would do. NO responsibility for the outcome? In truth Satan is simply the agent of God's Will, doing as God always knew and intended that he would. If Satan is NOT doing as God expected and intended that he would, then God failed to achieve the result He intended to achieve. Factor in all the free will you wish, but an omniscient God already knows all the outcomes. And an omnipotent God gets EXACTLY the outcomes He wishes to get WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
Deut.32
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Satan is God's perfect creation, doing EXACTLY as God always intended that he would do. Without exception. Just and right belong to God to determine.
I do not believe in Calvinism. Also, what you have stated here is doctrine not the Bible. You have also assumed that you do know what God determines to be right and wrong, but you can't be right because it was said, "Just and right belong to God to determine." By that you have nullified your own assumption. What I see in this reply is John Calvin's words and doctrines not God's. So the idea that Satan along with he wicked ways are God's doing will be rejected because it cannot undo the fact that the Bible says that Satan was at one time did 'stand fast in the truth'.
I'm sure there are a 100 threads on predestination I am not interested in starting another one as it comes down to one question. Do you believe in interpretations of John Calvin? I do not. You said there was nothing in the Bible alluded to that Satan being created as a good upright person. But there is something in the Bible that says Satan did start off in truth. So you were incorrect in your statement. Yet in your reply why you are going to explain why you were wrong about your first statement? It seems you're more concerned with being right then finding truth.
Last edited by 2Timothy316; 02-01-2016 at 11:15 AM..
Being that Jesus is the truth ... being that Jesus is sinless ... being that Jesus is The Word ... being that Jesus is The Messiah .... then anyone who entertains any conclusion other than Jesus' judgement towards Satan is in error.
Therefore both of these are lies
1) Genesis 3:4, "You certainly will not die."
2) Luke 4:6-7", " ““I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
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