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The initial problem with the substitutionary atonement is that when Jesus told the thief this day he would be with Him (Jesus) in paradise, JESUS HAD YET TO DIE, but THE THIEF WAS FORGIVEN?
If it does require the shedding of blood (universally understood as DEATH) how was Jesus able to forgive the thief?
Jesus didn't say the thief would be with Him in paradise THAT VERY DAY. Both Jesus and the thief were in the tomb the day they died, not paradise. Paradise comes when, as the thief stated "Thou comest in Thine kingdom."
Jesus said "I say to you today, thou shalt be with me in paradise."
God took the sins of the thief and put them on the head of Christ to be born away and died for.
Quote:
Jesus’s death is not the solution to a problem residing in God; it’s the solution to the problem of evil residing in us. It is the ultimate, prototypical symbol of the nature and reality of God. Its redemptive power lies in its capacity to lure us into the mystery and miracle of unconditional forgiveness, reconciling grace, and healing love.
Everyone past & present enters the kingdom via Christ.
Hebrews 10:12-14 - but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Still does not answer how Christ was able to tell the thief he was forgiven and granted access to paradise PRIOR to Jesus' death?
Jesus didn't say the thief would be with Him in paradise THAT VERY DAY. Both Jesus and the thief were in the tomb the day they died, not paradise. Paradise comes when, as the thief stated "Thou comest in Thine kingdom."
Jesus said "I say to you today, thou shalt be with me in paradise."
God took the sins of the thief and put them on the head of Christ to be born away and died for.
I don't believe in substitutionary atonement. I believe in the inclusivistic death of Christ in which, when Christ died, all died.
Yes He did say THAT VERY DAY.
There is NO proof of where the comma was placed and I really find it rather fugly that some will twist the word of God they claim to RESPECT and revere ABOVE all else just to fit their agenda when there is ZERO evidence God omitted and failed to use correct punctuation.
Jesus said THIS DAY. One can argue semantics and other silliness all day long, but when I tell someone THIS DAY I WILL DO...it typically means that with 100% assurance I will do it THAT DAY, not later.
Everyone past & present enters the kingdom via Christ.
Hebrews 10:12-14 - but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Who do you think are his enemies? Your unbelieving Granny and Aunt Ethel ?.
My wonderful Nan, Smoked like a chimney, drank vodka like it was going out of fashion, loved the slots and knew how to party. I have great peace that one day I will see her again.
Yes He did say THAT VERY DAY.
There is NO proof of where the comma was placed and I really find it rather fugly that some will twist the word of God they claim to RESPECT and revere ABOVE all else just to fit their agenda when there is ZERO evidence God omitted and failed to use correct punctuation.
Jesus said THIS DAY. One can argue semantics and other silliness all day long, but when I tell someone THIS DAY I WILL DO...it typically means that with 100% assurance I will do it THAT DAY, not later.
Not really.
Luk_23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise." (Concordant Literal New Testament).
Note the comma after "today."
Jesus really was dead until He was resurrected. He wasn't off in Paradise playing checkers with the thief.
Who do you think are his enemies? Your unbelieving Granny and Aunt Ethel ?.
My wonderful Nan, Smoked like a chimney, drank vodka like it was going out of fashion, loved the slots and knew how to party. I have great peace that one day I will see her again.
I don't know who His enemies are.
You may see her again... location to be determined...
This I will say for certain - if she happened to not end up in a good place, it will not be because she smoked and drank, and partied, and gambled.
Still does not answer how Christ was able to tell the thief he was forgiven and granted access to paradise PRIOR to Jesus' death?
I guess it's beyond my pay grade to understand why. I'm OK with that.
I have faith in what He said is indeed true. I will trust in Him before trying to figure it out myself.
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